Question about 了.

[Trez]

How in gods name does one post a new post?

anyway the question I wanted to ask was what is the difference between;

我去看了她

我去看她了。

thanks

[imron]

[Admin Note: Split into separate post.]

How in gods name does one post a new post?

Click on the 'forums' link in the navigation bar, then click on the forum you want to post in. At the top and bottom right of each sub-forum's page there is then a button that says 'Start New Topic'.

[eshton]

了 in a sentence represent a change of state i.e a completion of an action (verb). The 了 in 我去看了她 and 我去看她了 both express the completion of the action however, 我去看了她 is phrase and one would expect a to be presented with some attribute of the action 看了.

[skylee]

however, 我去看了她 is phrase and one would expect a to be presented with some attribute of the action 看了.

Not sure I understand. Could you elaborate some more?

[Tiana]

"to be presented with some attribute"

Do you mean something like this: The speaker will normally add something after "我去看了她", whereas s/he may just finish speaking after "我去看她了" ? That is what I understand of the difference. Another way of putting it:

"我去看了她": the speaker is in the middle of telling a story, an event, etc...

"我去看她了" : the speaker is updating some old information.

[eshton]

@Tiana

Yes that was what I meant to say. " 我去看了她" is a phrase you find when someone is relating some event.

[Alyssum]

Not a native speaker, but here's my understanding after some years of study with links to the Chinese Grammar Wiki:

我去看了她 - "I have gone to see her", 了 after a verb means completion of an action (aka aspect). In English that is expressed with "have" as in "I have drank 8 glasses of water today". More info at http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Expressing_completion_with_%22le%22

我去看她了 - "I went to see her (after not visting her for some time)", 了 at the end of a sentence usually indicates a change of state (aka modal). There is no good translation of this in English, it is often derived from the context. When first learning this usage, I often thought of it as "now" i.e. "I went to see her now" which implies the current situation is different from the way it used to be. More info at http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Modal_particle_%22le%22 with some nice examples / translations.

[skylee]

I wonder if there is really a difference between the two. Shouldn't that depend on the context?

[Alyssum]

Skylee,

Yes, the given examples are a bit too short to have a clear meaning. Here's some real-life examples with context straight from Google:

(1) Woman asking for advice on what to do next for her friend. http://zhidao.baidu..../468485254.html

"朋友生了个宝宝，我去看了她，还买了宝宝的衣服。现在她给打电话说办满月酒..." - My friend has had a baby, I have gone to see her, and even have bought baby clothes. Just now she called me to say she's preparing a one-month birthday feast..."

(2) Young man telling a story of the new events that happened with the girl he has had a crush on. http://bbs.city.tian.../1/280264.shtml

"MM终于答应我去看她了,我和mm是很多年的同学,我一直对她有种莫名的好感..." - MM has finally agreed for me to see her. MM and I are old classmates. I have always had an indescribable feeling towards her...

Could Google for more examples and I think you'll see there is definitely is a difference in the meaning and usage.

BTW, are you a Cantonese speaker? It is much easier to explain the meaning compared to Cantonese grammar because they are direct translations:

(1) 我去看了他 － 我去睇咗佢，了 after a verb can be directly translated as 咗, c.f. 你吃了飯沒有？ and 你食咗飯未呀？ to mean "Have you eaten yet?"

(2) 我去看他了 － 我去睇佢喇，了 at the end of the sentence can be translated as 喇. c.f. 我不說了。 and 我唔講喇。 to mean "I am not going to speak anymore"

[anonymoose]

我去看了她 - "I have gone to see her"

Then what does 我去看过她 mean?

[Tiana]

1) Woman asking for advice on what to do next for her friend. http://zhidao.baidu..../468485254.html

"朋友生了个宝宝，我去看了她，还买了宝宝的衣服。现在她给打电话说办满月酒..." - My friend has had a baby, I have gone to see her, and even have bought baby clothes. Just now she called me to say she's preparing a one-month birthday feast..."

This use of 了 is as eshton and I said in a few posts back.

(2) Young man telling a story of the new events that happened with the girl he has had a crush on. http://bbs.city.tian.../1/280264.shtml

"MM终于答应我去看她了,我和mm是很多年的同学,我一直对她有种莫名的好感..." - MM has finally agreed for me to see her. MM and I are old classmates. I have always had an indescribable feeling towards her...

This 了 is in fact not part of "我去看她了", but part of "终于答应(...)了"

(It's still doing the same function of updating of information, nevertheless)

I wonder if there is really a difference between the two. Shouldn't that depend on the context?

True, but a generalisation of usage can be considered as a kind of generalisation of contexts:

"我去看了她": the speaker is in the middle of telling a story, an event, etc...

"我去看她了" : the speaker is updating some old information.

[eshton]

I've yet to come across a usage of 了 that doesn't fall into one of the contexts above. I'm not an expert on the subject but the grammatical structure I've been taught basically limits the context.

For example : 我去了看她 the了 doesn't represent a change of state, and actually modifies the wrong verb.

[skylee]

For example :我去了看她 the了 doesn't represent a change of state, and actually modifies the wrong verb.

But the sentence itself is not wrong.

I find this discussion very confusing. And I don't understand how grammatical structures can limit the contexts. I think I will quit and let you guys who have studied Chinese grammar discuss it.

PS - re #9, I am a Cantonese speaker all right. But it is not necessary to explain the use of 了 to me in Cantonese. It is not like I don't know how to use the word. Thanks for the thought though.

[eshton]

Spoken, the sentence is acceptable although the meaning might be a bit confusing. However writing such a sentence is wrong (trust me, I tried it in a 文章, my teacher almost killed me).

[skylee]

However writing such a sentence is wrong (trust me, I tried it in a 文章, my teacher almost killed me).

I disagree. It is not wrong.

But don't let your teacher kill you.

OK. Bye.

[anonymoose]

There seems to be a lot of 班门弄斧ing going on here.

[roddy]

"If you think you understand 了, you don't understand 了."

with apologies to Richard Feynman.

[arrow]

I'm with Alyssum #7. Other than that, I think 我去看她了 could also mean something like I 'm now going to see her, which is short version of 我这就去看她了, usually used when you are telling someone what you are about to do.

I'm a native speaker.

[Tiana]

I'd agree with you on this, roddy, as I think I've never seen anything in Chinese that is as confusing as 了. But does this mean one should not attempt to help when we see questions about 了 in the forum? Anonymoose in post #16 even sees such attempts as showing off. This is rather unfortunate and seems to be against the spirit of a public forum, where, I think, we should try to give help when we can, knowing very well that we won't be correct all the time.

A confused newbie.

[OneEye]

班門弄斧 isn't "showing off," it's more like "showing just how little you know in front of an expert." Skylee is a native speaker, and yet beginners are arguing with her and saying she's wrong because their teacher at a language center took off points when they wrote it that way. Imagine a beginning learner of your native language had the nerve to tell you you're wrong about usage in your own language, because "trust me, my teacher doesn't let me write it."

Really? A native speaker's input doesn't count because some beginners' course hasn't treated the subject in sufficient depth yet?