Laowai job market - overview needed

[liuzhou]

I meant as opposed to local hires (which you said in posts 13 and 15).

But locally hired foreigners are still ex-pats.

but Hewitt might: according to this 2010 survey (see page 11 here), 57.5% of expats were "China hires"

I have been unable to open that link directly or through VPN etc., but I'd love to know where they did their survey.

[gato]

Here's a link that should work:

http://www.amcham-shanghai.org/amchamportal/infovault_library/2010/2010_Expatriate_Returnee_and_China_Hired_Foreigner_Compensation_and_Benefits_Survey.pdf

[icebear]

But locally hired foreigners are still ex-pats.

We have a fundamental discrepancy in our terminology...

In HR:

• "expat" - foreigner hired from abroad, usually with an attractive "hardship" post package, including regular airfares back home, school stipends for children, housing stipends, and a home-salary multiplier for "hardship"
  
• "local" hire - foreigner hired in country, usually with only the minimum required benefits - standard holiday and insurance, wage probably higher than the average national/city wage for that skill set but definitely much lower than a "expat"
  

[liuzhou]

"expat" - foreigner hired from abroad, usually with an attractive "hardship" post package, including regular airfares back home, school stipends for children, housing stipends, and a home-salary multiplier for "hardship"

Shit! I'm not an expatriate!

I'm sorry, but that definition is bullshit.

The only difference is that my definition is natural English and yours is in-house jargon.

Having used up all the argument devices such as narrowing the argument from 'foreigners in China' to '30 something year-old foreigners in finance in Beijing' thereby proving a point you made under the former, then twice arguing by accusing me of saying something which I never said, then arguing against that rather than what I actually said, you are now trying to twist the English language to fit your argument?

Here's a link that should work:

Thanks. That worked. But it still doesn't say where they did the survey. If I hadn't already gambled away everything I own, I'd bet they never left Shanghai.

And unless we are looking at different reports it doesn't back up the claims made so far. Page 11, for example mentions nothing about "57.5% of expats were "China hires"

[gougou]

Liuzhou, a few points before I'll get back on topic:

- Did you look at page 11 by their labeling? On there, it says so very clearly.

- I also don't know where they did their survey, but even if it was only Shanghai, I wouldn't discard their data just based on that. Judging by census data, about 1/3 of mainland foreigners live in Shanghai, together with Beijing it's more than half. So even if they actually only were in Shanghai (and I don't see a reason why we should believe that), it'd still be a large part. The largest, in fact.

- Just because you are not familiar with a definition doesn't make it bullshit. The definition icebear gave may not conform to traditional English usage of the word, but is widely used and not just "trying to twist the English language to fit your argument"

Back to the OP:

You mention budgeting, controlling and reporting, but no experience in finance. By that I suppose you mean the finance industry? Or did you do those activities in a non-financial field?

Either way, I think controlling and reporting are good fields to get into as a foreigner. First of all controlling is all but absent from your standard Chinese university education, so you may have knowledge and experience locals can't match. Also, many companies (rightly or not) will feel more comfortable knowing a foreigner in these crucial positions.

[liuzhou]

- Did you look at page 11 by their labeling? On there, it says so very clearly.

Their labelled page 11 that I am looking at says no such thing. And I can find no such figure anywhere.

Are you sure we are looking at the same document?

Judging by census data, about 1/3 of mainland foreigners live in Shanghai

Interesting. Where do you get that figure from? I've seen (and quoted here) figures which suggest otherwise - It'll take some time to find them.

Just because you are not familiar with a definition doesn't make it bullshit. The definition icebear gave may not conform to traditional English usage of the word, but is widely used.

I'm not sure it is "widely used" But if so, to declare half way through an argument that your definition of a common English expression is highly specialised and not in line with "traditional English" is somewhat disingenuous. By that definition, few of the expats here are ex-pats.

[roddy]

Have you had a tough day, Liuzhou?

[liuzhou]

Answering this thread, yes. Otherwise no.

How are you?

[roddy]

Fine.

I find it quite normal to separate ex-pats and local hires. "He's a bit of an ex-pat", you might say of someone who has a company-paid villa and kids at the international school. And you'd be unlikely to refer to a jobbing English teacher as an expatriate, I think, however accurate it may be. Hardly worth getting worked up about a little mismatch in terminology.

[liuzhou]

Hardly worth getting worked up about a little mismatch in terminology.

Out of context, no.

In context, perhaps.

[Scoobyqueen]

Also I would ad tt an expat has usually worked at HQ/home country of company before being expatriated. Otherwise it would be a local contract.

ie if I accept a job with a multinational in China headquartered elsewhere they will not give an expatriate v

contract if my starting location is not at HQ/home country of company.

[liuzhou]

expatriate, ppl. a. and n.

(ɛksˈpeɪtrɪət)

[f. as next, on the analogy of ppl. adjs. from Lat. pa. pples.: see -ate2.]

A.A adj. = expatriated. B.B n. An expatriated person. In modern usage, a person who lives in a foreign country.

Oxford English Dictionary

[Scoobyqueen]

If you talk about an expat contract within HR it is a legal term which it seems is not covered in this dictionary definition.

[amandagmu]

I see the points above about Dalian and would add -- that is why I suggested taking a look at places hiring in your home country first. I have seen advertisements before that say things like hiring for an engineering or business job but then have a line like "willingness to work in China" or something like that. For example, VW hires engineers to do just that. It's worth looking into before just showing up.

As for local hiring, in Beijing I had quite a few non-Chinese friends who found work easily with international companies. Usually, however, they went through the guanxi channels by asking other foreign friends. For example, I ran with a group of people in Beijing and at least on two separate occasions I knew of people who helped someone else in the group find employment within their international company. While this might be the kind of thing to happen more obviously in Beijing-Shanghai, I don't see why it wouldn't be possible in a place like Dalian. Just hang out with the right people.

[Alex Whiteman]

Thanks very much everyone - Icebear in particular.

Maybe others will profit from this thread in the future.

If that wage range is true, then it's downright awesome news for me.

I'm currently working at a company that supposedly pays 150% of the average market wage for each position (here) and, even so, the dollar value of my current wage is right below the range in question. . . and the cost of living where I am is certainly higher than in. . . say. . . Beijing.

[icebear]

If that wage range is true, then it's downright awesome news for me.

I'm currently working at a company that supposedly pays 150% of the average market wage for each position (here) and, even so, the dollar value of my current wage is right below the range in question. . . and the cost of living where I am is certainly higher than in. . . say. . . Beijing.

Keep in mind that's the wage of people who find and keep a job. Plenty of people come here and eek by for a few months, don't find anything, pack up and go home. Things are good once you're in.

[Alex Whiteman]

You mention budgeting, controlling and reporting, but no experience in finance. By that I suppose you mean the finance industry? Or did you do those activities in a non-financial field?

Either way, I think controlling and reporting are good fields to get into as a foreigner. First of all controlling is all but absent from your standard Chinese university education, so you may have knowledge and experience locals can't match. Also, many companies (rightly or not) will feel more comfortable knowing a foreigner in these crucial positions.

Neither. I have not worked in the finance industry and my job has had more to do with very basic economics, some accounting and even some IT.

I have not worked in valuation or with cashflows, for example. . . and don't get me going about how the most complex financial products most likely do not even exist locally. "Finance" here is mostly about handling the risk of expropriation by the government and staying afloat with an inflation rate of over 20%.

Maybe I'm misusing the term controlling but I don't consider my job as technical as I would like it to be.

I actually held slightly different positions during these last years.

One part of my job has had to do with identifying deviations from the budget (expenses for example, but not limited to), if possible, track down the source in some kind of ERP (maybe down to an accounting entry, or an invoice) and phone whoever is meant to provide an explanation. Sounds silly, but in a company with hundreds of employees accross dozens of departments you find a lot who are just oblivious of how to get their stuff in order.

Other stuff has had to do with coordinating parts of the budgeting process accross departments, getting involved with IT for implementing new systems or requesting modifications to existing ones (a lot of this) and, of course, a lot of reporting (internal, to partners, to the government. . .)

One thing I did for a couple of years was run an indirect costs distribution system. . . and I had eventually created a way to do track down deviations amongst the over 30*30 variables that coud have caused them. This was mostly done through a couple of simulations, but the point was how the spreadsheet was built that you could do this systematically, in a reasonable amount of time. . . and graph it. This was meaningful to the extent that company partners who were meant to pay for some of these costs would historically try to find ways to justify not paying or requesting some of the money back.

I ended up porting the whole thing to SAP when the company adopted the later.

er. . . that covers 90% of it, I think. None of it was too technical, just common sense.

So. . . if the Chinese care for any of that then good, I suppose. . .

[Alex Whiteman]

Keep in mind that's the wage of people who find and keep a job. Plenty of people come here and eek by for a few months, don't find anything, pack up and go home. Things are good once you're in.

What's a reasonable amount of time for one of these job searches to last? 6 months?

I guess I'll have some flexibility since I could begin my search earlier or later while studying.

[gougou]

if the Chinese care for any of that

Not so sure about that; I'd try foreign-owned companies first. Reporting is a huge deal there (esp. to the parent company overseas), and often done by foreigners.

Your experience, esp. for CV purposes, definitely counts as controlling. And don't sell yourself short by calling it "just common sense" - sense may not be as common as you think...

[icebear]

What's a reasonable amount of time for one of these job searches to last? 6 months?

You should actively search starting about 6 months before you plan to finish your studies. I suggest having a "buffer" time planned between your studies and your job - some what to stay legitimate (a visa) and afloat (money wise). For many this is a teaching English or using some savings, and a short term (several month) tourist visa. Timing is everything, so it's hard to say if you'll find something on day one or 180, but I think more than a six month gap on a resume (between studies and the job you're applying for) will start to work against you.