Laowai job market - overview needed

[laojiugui]

Interesting and informative thread so far and I have a couple of questions of my own.

I live in HK, and have been studying Mandarin for the past 6 months (privately, with a tutor). My job search here (HK) has not been very fruitful to date due to lack of language skills. I'm an engineer in middle management supply chain / manufacturing / procurement. I've chosen Mandarin rather than Cantonese as all jobs ads in my field are asking for Mandarin. I'll shortly be going to Beijing for a month to immerse myself in an intensive course at BLCU. I'm currently a comfortable HSK3, and I hope to reach a pigeon-business-semi-functional level of Mandarin during that time - ie. not good enough to use as my primary language in the office, but functional if I need to talk with someone who has limited English. Upon my return to HK, I'll be spreading my net further and looking for Shenzhen-based roles in addition to HK.

So, my questions:

1. Is there anyone here with similar experience that may have any industry-specific pointers (ie. "local hire" (as opposed to 'expat') working in manufacturing in Shenzhen or HK)? My job search to date has been pretty demoralizing. Great CV and lots of chats with recruiters but not much traction.

2. Should I get my CV translated into Chinese?

3. Should I get business cards and a Chinese name? My first name is Sean, and I like the sound of 肖恩. Sean Connery is translated 肖恩·康纳利, however 肖 can be used as a surname, so I'm wondering if I can get away with the two characters 肖恩 as a full name?

4. No need to write this final question - I already know the answer: Network, network, network.

[Lu]

2 and 3: absolutely. Get your cv in Chinese, because even if recruiters speak decent English, they, but most importantly everybody else, will be more comfortable reading Chinese than Engish. If they have two candidates, one with a Chinese cv, one with an English, which cv do you think they'll read first?

Business cards (with a Chinese name if you like, this is nice but not crucial) are absolutely necessary, I don't think it's even possible to network in China without mingpian. A friend of mine made a mingpian with her name and contact details and such on one side and a very brief cv on the other side, you might consider doing something like that. (She got a good job in the end.)

Good luck, with both your studies and the job hunt!

[skylee]

however 肖 can be used as a surname

I would advise against 肖, it is not right as a surname, even in simplified Chinese. Many people might say it is right, though, including prominent people who have somehow taken it as a surname. ("When enough people are wrong, they are right." 習非成是。） Use 蕭 (simplified to 萧) instead.

I have no other input.

[山东朱]

After talking about my plan to do a PhD in China, my chinese colleague shared some insight into applications in China, mostly, but not limited to academic working environments: the name of your university is by far the most important factor in the first round of applications. Even if you come from a country where university rankings are more or less non-existent, the guy in charge will sort out applicants who come from some university that he hasnt heard of - e.g. even though the University of Hamburg is not a special university at all in Germany, just for the fact that it is a bigger city and thus has a nice ring to it, this could be enough to get you through the first round. This sorting out-process is to be expected if there are around ten or more applications.

Outside of maybe the top 5 institutions in China, all other doctoral degrees will be deemed pretty much inferior to a western one - and even then, a PhD from a Top 100 university globally will beat the Top 5 of China. The same applies in the western world, of course, even to a greater degree.

That doesnt mean the degree is worthless - its just, if you can get into a good university in the West, do it, since it offers you more chances in China too.

[roddy]

Might be wiser to start a topic about PhD's, or find an existing one, you might not reach the right people here.

[laojiugui]

Lu, thanks for your advice. I'll definitely get a mingpian organised - I really like the idea of a CV summary on the reverse of the card. I'll get my CV translated when I get to Beijing - only 10 days to go...

Skylee - I didn't realise the name would be controversial! I did a bit of research and found a discussion on the issue in wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiao_(surname)#Simplified_Chinese_problem Thanks for the heads up.

[Alex Whiteman]

Ok, I'm searching all over China now - 5 months to go and preparing a plan b if by April I still have nothing. . .

One thing I'm noticing is all these postings in English of jobs I could do; hundreds of them; either because they are exactly the same I already did for years or because the role keeps track of different variables - maybe with slightly different methods - but at the end of the day it's the same two or three skills, two or three activities aimed at something else. . .
That's a relief. . .

Now, my question is this 10000-30000 salary range thing. . .

Some of these job postings require fluent English, BA/MA degree, over 5 years of experience with a list of extremely specific (often industry-specific) skills and experiences which is very hard to have each and every. . . up to 15000 if you are lucky, often less. . .  the 15000/20000 range is offered to managers. Anything less and you are below 10000 and going down fast. . . This in Shanghai, for example.

Now, I look at some language teaching job. . . the requirement is fluent English/Spanish whatever. . . we give you the visa
Work experience: some but doesn't really matter, better if you speak a little Chinese (if you can), be friendly to kids, blah blah blah
15000/20000 range. . . in Shanghai too.

It's easy to interpret the former is destined to English speaking locals and the later to attract foreigners. . .

. . .but I don't want to teach my mother tongue, anyway. Even if it looks dumb easy to just start applying to those. . .

So. . . 怎么办?

I'm still not sure I want to leave the major boards altogether. . . because maybe some of these searches can still be open to visa-needing foreigners (the fact that I applied to stuff I'm glaringly overqualified for just to see if I could potshot an ok job here or there. . . and still got rejected within the week is probably proof that most aren't - particularly if the application process suddenly pops up a "Are you legally qualified to work in China?" clause - this was at an international company website by the way; but it's the same thing. . .).
 I'm visiting the job boards aimed at foreigners too - but activity, of course, is much lower.

 

[skylee]

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but do the salary ranges in #67 refer to annual salary or monthly salary?  I suppose that is RMB, right?

[Alex Whiteman]

My bad! Wrote it wrong! What a shame! Just corrected it. . . 

​It was monthly. . . for example somebody posted a job in a foreigners board that mostly caters to teachers:
Office manager in Guangzhou, must speak english, blah blah his professional ability. . . 5000 RMB per month

-
  My point is that I'm not sure how to tackle this wage divide - if a company is saying it'll pay so much (presumably for a local) . . . any chance of considering a laowai application, even for the same low wage?
 Also because I (obviously) don't see many entry-level jobs (presumably for foreigners) saying we are offering the ranges discussed in the earlier pages of this thread. 
 How does the divide work? with what flexibility?
It's some kind of hidden market or it's the same companies that turn around and offer a different figure to foreigners (for the same job)?
I did hear something like the later for someone who had a job land on his lap when he wasn't even looking for one.

. . .which makes sense, by the way, if job postings here had the wages paid to foreigners listed. . . well. . .

[icebear]

I'm a bit unclear what your exact predictament is - could you rephrase your question more briefly/clearly? Will take a stab at it below for now...

 

1. I think its a big leap to assume that well paid positions for Chinese are open to foreigners and all that entails - lack of fluency in Chinese, visa needs, differing expectations on work culture. 
2. Most (non-English) job offerings for foreigners won't discuss a range at all. That will come up during negotiations if you are actually offered the job. You should be able to figure out what the rough salary range should be based on the industry, title and years of experience required.
3. Not sure about the divide/flexibility you refer to.
4. Again, unclear about the hidden market.

[Alex Whiteman]

Well, it might be a naive question but what all this leads to is whether it's even possible to distinguish a job offering for (or open to) foreigners ex-ante. . . except for (2) i.e. them offering less than 13000 RMB per month for over 5 years of experience and a list of qualifications.
For one, only like 30% of these ads in English state "fluency in Mandarin" - which is misleading about the ones that don't.

At this, I received calls in broken English asking how much money I wanted before any interview - so some are kind of gambling. . .

I'm applying to foreign companies directly - in some cases it (eventually!) transpires it was a position for locals; but then a headhunter somewhere else actually becomes interested and calls.

Finally, it leads me to wonder whether most of the opportunities are out there in the open (i.e. job ads) or handled through connections instead: for example, the two people I know who had a (non-teaching) job fall on their laps was because they ran into someone who worked at a company that explicitly wanted to hire foreigners.

[icebear]

Finally, it leads me to wonder whether most of the opportunities are out there in the open (i.e. job ads) or handled through connections instead: for example, the two people I know who had a (non-teaching) job fall on their laps was because they ran into someone who worked at a company that explicitly wanted to hire foreigners.

 

This is common almost everywhere in the world. Some corporations have a policy for non-executive positions of advertising internally for a week(s), then opening to referrals by employees for week(s), before finally doing an open call. The reason is the 1 and 2 are much more reliable, given you have either an verified performance record, or a trusted employee vouching for the stranger. 

 

Most jobs don't advertise the need for fluency because it is assumed. In some cases they may not be able to advertise that qualification formally.

[Alex Whiteman]

On another note. . . Did anyone try one of those jobs where they hire you solely because you are a foreigner who speaks X language and can call back home to sell Z product?
 

. . .been sending to those on the side and got a response.

I'm a little wary, not just because from the job description/requirements I'm so overqualified it hurts, but because I'm not sure about the working conditions - this is a medium sized to small local company; Chinglish website and everything. . .

I had a friend who was doing that kind of jobs. At some point, he had found a new opportunity in another city and was getting started. . .  apparently they wanted him to start working before handling the Z visa thing or something like that. . . so eventually he asked - hey, c'mon, you promised - . . . they accused (read: scolded) him of "being selfish" for wanting to work on a Z visa. He had no choice but to give them the finger and move on - still a disgusting thing to go through and a waste of time and money travelling here and there. . .

So. . . I don't know. . .

My main concerns here are the Z visa/permit and post #50.

[icebear]

On another note. . . Did anyone try one of those jobs where they hire you solely because you are a foreigner who speaks X language and can call back home to sell Z product?

 

I have a friend with this kind of job now (and a few in the past). Its a fun (and actually pretty lucrative) gig, although once he gets to around the two year market he'll be scrambling for his next move (his words), given only the cultural skills are transferable, which a lot of people based here have. It can be a great experience for a year or two, and good for your Chinese, if you go into it with your eyes open.

[Alex Whiteman]

Lucrative? Any idea of the wage range for this kind of activity?  This is in one of the largest cities. Thank you.

[icebear]

Lucrative? Any idea of the wage range for this kind of activity?  This is in one of the largest cities. Thank you.

 

It literally could be anything. 30-40k/month range for those anecdotes I know, which is a pretty healthy sum for not needing at specific skill set.

[Alex Whiteman]

Ok I just had this "interview" on chat (I mean purely in written form). . . the guy wanted to pay me 4000 a month plus a commission for surpassing the sales target (whose attainability I could not ascertain). . . then started talking about a probation period of 2000 a month (apparently with no commission). 
. . .and me thinking about having to drop everything and travel to the other end of China for that.

Too many assumptions needed on my part for this to work. . . so I said thank you I'll think about it.

_

Of the two or three jobs of this kind I threw a resume at; this one was the least serious of the ads. . . and the weirdest response so far with a guy saying "I'm the General Manager" contacting me within two hours requesting an interview and then not seeming to care or understand when I asked about the date/time for such interview. As I suspected it would be, this "interview" started the very moment I added him to IM (unemployed as I am, I'm probably busier than him).

[Alex Whiteman]

More on sales gigs. . .

 

Quick question: Anyone know what's an acceptable fixed component (not the commission bit) of these wages?

Already jumped ship on two of these and I'm deciding what do do about the third. . .

Also. . . any chance of working legally?   

[Alex Whiteman]

. . .would be employer wants me to work two months while we wait for the government to issue the documents needed for my work permit.

Anyone heard of such thing before?

To me it sounds like a covert probation period. . . 

 

[imron]

Are they paying you for that work?