(NPPLC) Chapter #2 - Yet More Proverbs

[navaburo]

This thread is for the discussion of Chapter #2 of A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese by Paul Rouzer.

Please keep in mind DrWatson's ground rules posted in last chapter's thread.

For general discussion and a schedule for the study group, please see the proposal thread.

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I'll let someone else start off the discussion this week. Before I post on the substance of the lesson I need to finish the exercises.

[DrWatson]

I am not quite ready yet myself, I have read the lesson, but I am having more trouble with the translation and meanings in this lesson. And I also need to work the exercises.

[navaburo]

I hear you! This lesson is definitely a notch more challenging! Thankfully the author includes translations in the rear. I found those crucial for parsing the text. But, I hope that by becoming comfortable with these terse syntax patterns particular to 文言文 it will become easier to parse and understand without the crutch of the English translations.

Another reason this reading is hard is because they are real excerpts. The ideas are new too at least to me. These contrasting, almost self-contradictory sentences will take some getting used to as well.

[xuexiansheng]

I think I did slightly better with this text. The most difficult part for me was the second half.

天下失道，而後仁義生焉。國家不治，而後孝子生焉。民爭不分，而後慈惠生焉。道逆時反，而後權謀生焉。(Red so I'll remember these and NEVER FORGET!)

I misread this as rhetorical questions; translating it as: When the whole world loses the Way, how then can righteousness and benevolence come? Rather than as it should have been as a statement of cause and effect: When the whole world loses the Way, only then can righteousness and benevolence arise. (From Rouzner) It looks like I made the mistake of mixing Rouzner's definitions "焉 #1: [An object pronoun.] #2: How. [question word]"(page 17). In the notes he references Lesson 27 and a quick look at that says that it is rarely used as the #2 definition. It looks like when it is used as #2 'How...[rhetorical question]' then it is at the beginning of a sentence. If it is at the end it is #1 (combining 於+object pronoun). I wonder if it can be used in the middle of a phrase. I'll have to keep an eye on 焉.

[navaburo]

I've been having most trouble with parsing the sentences' structure. Drawing out parse trees has been helping me. Here's what I came up with for the texts of this lesson:

[DrWatson]

So I am not understanding the object pronoun definition for 焉 in the second proverb. What is 焉 referring to in the sentence? Is it the pronoun for the phrase preceeding the 而後 phrase? Such as, 焉 for 國家不治 in 「國家不治，而後孝子生焉。」

[DrWatson]

@navaburo: Ha ha, those diagrams remind of a computer science course I took long ago back in college! Nice hand writing, by the way.

[xuexiansheng]

@navaburo

Ha, great job! Sentence diagramming always confused the hell out of me. I'm glad someone finds them useful!

[OneEye]

Yes, it can be used in the middle of a phrase. Here are a few examples of its usage as an adverb:

It can be used like 哪裡 or 怎麼 in modern Chinese:

“割雞焉用牛刀？”

殺雞哪裡用得著殺牛的刀？

Or it can be used like 才 or 就:

“必知亂之所自起，焉能治之：不知亂之所自起，則弗能治。”

一定要知道禍亂產生的根源，才能治理它；不知道禍亂產生的根源，就不能治理。

There are many, many other uses of 焉. My small 《古漢語虛詞詞典》 (from which those examples are taken) dedicates more than five small-font, double column pages to 焉.

In this passage, however, it is a contraction for "於之." So it refers to 天下 in the first sentence (will arise there), and so on.

[DrWatson]

In the first proverb I think I understand the 而 construct. In this usage, it appears to be connecting a verb-phrase with a verb.

Doing the exercises helped me to understand the proverbs better, but I am struggling with 不加. The first part I found difficult was the implied subject. I started out thinking that 喜 was the subject; thankfully we have Rouzer's translation in the back of the text. But there is still something in the Chinese that appears to be driving more meaning.

喜不加易，怒不加難。

Though he is delighted, he is not anymore lenient; Though he is angry, he does not make things any more difficult.

Q. In looking at Rouzer's translation, it appears there is an understand grammatical structure, something like "this but that". What in the Chinese tips us to that understanding?

Q. What in the Chinese tips ups toward "does not make things"? I do not understand how Rouzer was able to get this from the text.

[xuexiansheng]

@OneEye

Thanks for the examples.

@DrWatson

I found Rouzer's example in Commentary 2.6 (page 22-23) to be helpful.

More difficult are these two phrases from the proverb #1

喜不加易，怒不加難

Chinese writers tend to have a fondness for four-character phrases and that may be why this is put the way it is. It would have been somewhat easier if we had:

喜而不加易，怒而不加難

But, I see your point how that would still only give us (literal) /happy/but/not/increase/easy. Still a lot to 'fill in' to get: "Though he is delighted, he is not any more lenient"

[navaburo]

A few more comments on this lesson:

When Rouzer defines 孝 he gives both 'filial' and 'filial piety', suggesting that 孝 may function as an adjective or as a noun. I learned to associate this character with the phrase 'filial piety' and so I suppose I was biased towards the noun usage. Anyways, when translating "unfilial rulers" for one of the exercises, I wrote 無孝之君 ("rulers who do not possess filial piety") rather than Rouzer's 不孝之君 ("not-filial rulers"). I wonder if what I wrote is also acceptable. If only Rouzer's is acceptable, then I would guess that 孝 is basically an adjective, but with the potential to be used as a noun: when there is an option, the basic adjective role is preferred.

I also wonder if 於 can come before the verb, like other co-verbs do. If so, is there an emphasis implied? Compare the pre/post-verb positioning of 以. Then again, I suppose that just reading enough the usage of such a common word as 於 will become crystal clear, without any grammatical hokuspokus .

I am shocked at the ambiguities of 謀: it can mean plotting against or planing for it's direct object... In English, these are the sort of words I avoid entirely when writing, for fear of being completely misunderstood.

I really appreciated the proverb that clearly explains the difference between 患 and 優. I also appreciate Rouzer's comments about 循 and 順 being entirely interchangeable (at least in the senses we have used so far). However, I'm still foggy on the difference between 慈 and 惠, and between 仁 and 義. Some more short proverbs on the subject would do nicely.

Very excited for Lesson 3!

[navaburo]

Oh and, thanks for the kind words about the sentence parse trees. I'm glad y'all liked them. I'll probably be doing that until I feel that the parsing is coming naturally (does that ever happen with classical?).

[somethingfunny]

I'm working through this chapter and have a question about one of the English to Chinese translation exercises.  The translation of "The people speak about a ruler who governs his country" is given as 民言治国之君. I'm a little confused as I got the impression the subject of the sentence should be after the 之 and I felt that here the speaking people were the subject.  I'm not sure entirely how I'd translate it but I was at least expecting it to end with 之民.  Although now that I think about it, this might be more apt if the original sentence began "The people who speak..."

 

Any thoughts?

 

I'm still working through this one so I might have more questions... (Really enjoying this series of threads!) 

[somethingfunny]

So I finished the second lesson.  At the moment I go through the vocab, notes and exercises and then finish off by translating the text from the lesson.  If you have any tips about how to use this material then please tell me!  I have a few questions about the second proverb:

 

Rouzer translates 民争不分 as "When the people fight and do not share". I assume I shouldn't be translating this as "When the people fight to not be divided" based on the context, as in following the pattern of: when this bad thing happens, only then can this good thing happen.  Although I kind of like the idea of compassion arising from a desire to not be divided.

 

Also in the second proverb I was a little uncomfortable with "道逆时反" which I guess is an example of the stative verb discussed in the notes, as in "the way is 逆'ed, the times are 反'ed".  Actually, I think I understand it now and was really just uncomfortable with the concept of "the times" going astray and thought it should have been 逆道时 or something like that.  Never mind.

 

I know these aren't necessarily questions but just going through the process of posing these questions is making a good substitute for having someone to talk it over with... thus far.