does the HSK set the bar too low?

[nicostouch]

It seems the old HSK covered roughly 8000 words and ~ 2800 characters. Which seems OK I guess for the top level but even this feels slightly low for what it perhaps should be. The new HSK it seems only tests 5000 words at the top level. This seems far too low to be testing for any native like proficiency given you need roughly 20,000 words in daily life (from my experience).

What are your guys thoughts on this? Does the HSK set the bar too low? Should it be harder? Cover more content?

[anonymoose]

There was a discussion on this here not long ago. There were mixed opinions, but personally I think the new HSK sets the bar too low.

It should be noted, though, that the HSK vocabulary lists are just guidelines. Vocabulary in the actual exam is not restricted. The old advanced HSK exam was notoriously difficult. I don't think anyone on these forums who doesn't have Chinese heritage ever managed to get the top grade (but I might be wrong).

[WestTexas]

I think the top level is too low. I haven't taken HSK 6, but I have done a few practice tests. The reading is easy except for speed. The listening is, in my opinion, WAY too easy. I don't even consider myself good at listening, and I think it's too easy. It's certainly much easier than, say, watching a TV show. Yet it seems like the highest level should be at least as difficult as someone would encounter in everyday usage.

I don't really hand-write, so I'm not sure of the difficulty of the writing, but it seems too easy. You just read something then... rewrite it??? I don't understand how it's scored but it seems like as long as you can write the most common characters and, just from looking at the story, remember how to write a few uncommon ones that were important to the story, you'll be fine.

At the same time, there are people graduating with degrees in Chinese who can barely pass level 5, so maybe the difficulty is OK (really, though, I just think that such degrees are kind of dubious/were obtained at a paper mill disguised as a university, but whatever)

[nicostouch]

Hmm interesting. As for recent graduates barely passing level 5, that sounds about right. I remember when I had been studying Japanese for just over a year I took JLPT2 (now N2) and there we're kids who had just graduated their 3 year long degree that I spoke too and they said it was harder than their final exams! Interestingly I missed out on passing by 5%...and this is after only 1 year of intense study as compared to their 3 years!

My point there is... degrees aren't worth anything in the language learning world. Plus, the pace of university/classes is far too slow.

I was thinking of taking HSK4 later this year for a challenge then I saw the vocab requirements is only 1000 words?? Seems ultra low.

It's interesting to hear that the old HSK Advanced was notoriously hard. Perhaps they dumbed it down to get passing rates up? I suppose for most people Chinese is quite a difficult language to learn.

[Silent]

This seems far too low to be testing for any native like proficiency given you need roughly 20,000 words in daily life (from my experience).

You're using the wrong measure stick. HSK6 is not intended to be "native like proficiency" whatever that may be.

[Scoobyqueen]

degrees aren't worth anything in the language learning world

If you mean that language degrees test other things than the HSK does I certainly agree.

[Sydney Matt]

What a timely topic, since I took the (new) HSK Level 6 exam today. Although my Chinese perhaps isn't quite really up to HSK Level 6, I decided to challenge myself. I haven't previously taken any other HSK exams (old or new).

I found today's exam was at the same level of difficulty as the practice exams (真题）that I'd be using to prepare. My feeling is that I probably did okay, neither brimming with confidence nor drowning in despair! Now I just have to wait 30 days or so to find out...

However, considering Level 6 is the highest level of the new HSK, then yes, it does set the bar too low. Not necessarily because of the number of words in the vocabulary list, but more because its scope is quite limited. Take the writing section for instance - as mentioned above, it does test your ability to write characters and grammatical sentences (& your memory!), but in the end, it's re-telling a story. There's no test of one's creative writing ability at all, in fact, the instructions specifically state to only summarise the article, and not add your own opinions.

I used a text book for the old advanced HSK in my preparations, which I personally found a lot of help (HSK速成强化教程 高等 - An Intensive Course of HSK Advanced, BLCUP 2002; 2009 re-print). Looking at the examples in this book, it seems that in the old HSK, there was more diversity in the sorts of questions asked within each of the listening, reading and writing sections.

On a different note, slightly annoyed I lost a few minutes out of the reading section since I was waiting for the examiners to announce that we could begin, as per the rules I'd read. Instead, when asked, they said of course, we could start the reading section straight away, even if it meant using part of the five minutes for filling in the answers for the listening section. Person sitting near me was in the same boat. Oh well.

[anonymoose]

I think one should also consider, from a European perspective, that most students pursuing a language degree study other European languages. At least, in the UK, there seem to be many more students studying French, German, Spanish, Italian, and the like, than languages such as Chinese or Japanese. Due to closeness of language, these are much easier to become proficient in. Not only that, but many people have already studied these languages for several years by the time they start a university degree. On the other hand, those that do study Chinese usually start from scratch. Therefore, it is unsurprising that they leave university with only a mediocre language level. I don't think this can be used to knock all language degrees. I think most graduates of languages such as French or German would be highly proficient.

Having said that, I also think language degrees are not particularly useful, simply because one can learn a language quite well without having to do a degree. After all, if I'm not mistaken, some of the more proficient Chinese users on this board acquired their language skills outside of an academic setting.

[WestTexas]

Regarding language degrees, I've met people of hugely different ability levels with 4 year degrees in Chinese. I met a Polish girl who spoke native-level Chinese. Chinese people could not tell from listening that she wasn't a native speaker. She was just finishing her degree in Chinese. Also met a Russian girl, 3rd year student, who could completely read and understand all the subtitles on the TV. We were in a bar and she couldn't hear it but could read everything.

Then I've met people who, despite having 4-year degrees in Chinese, can't seem to have reasonable conversations in Chinese (get lost after the first 5 minutes of BS), can't seem to read anything besides their textbooks, and can't understand Chinese people speaking naturally.

The big difference is, in my experience, the people in the second group are mostly people who got their Chinese degrees completely outside of China or only studied in China for 1-2 semesters. People who get the entire degree in China seem to have much better speaking/listening skills. I don't really go around checking on people's reading skills, so I can't say, but it would stand to reason that there would be a smaller gap there.

[peterlkj]

I think there are two points.

First, the vocabulary lists for HSK have always been pretty meaningless - you need to be comfortable with far more words than those lists would suggest to comfortably read the texts in the exam. Probably closer to double would be my guess.

Second, while its perhaps silly to only have HSK 5, or HSK 6 as titles, from what I've seen the actual score you get is also taken into account - i.e. a score of at least 210 on HSK 5 is needed for it to be considered equivalent to old HSK 8. Someone getting a very high (close to 300) score on HSK 6 would probably be very very good. Does saying HSK 6 (280/300) on your résumé sound as good as saying HSK 11? No, probably not, but I don't think the levels would be vastly different.

[xiaolang]

I don't really have a problem with the high ones, I think the 1-3 are more or less meaningless. I agree with peterlkj that getting a high score on HSK 6 is probably not that easy. I do, however, think that there's not really a point of having more difficult levels. If you pass HSK 6 you can read most of the important stuff, you can comfortably talk to people and you're quite well prepared to work or study in China. For everything exceeding that you can take the tests Chinese natives take, but I doubt that that many foreigners are actually interested in doing that so I don't know if more difficult levels would make that much sense.

[roddy]

On behalf of: Everyone who ever took or studied for the old HSK高级

To: Everyone who has only taken or studied for the new HSK.

Look out an old HSK高级 exam sometime and sit down and see how much fun it is. Then when you've stopped shaking....

[rob07]

I don't really hand-write, so I'm not sure of the difficulty of the writing, but it seems too easy. You just read something then... rewrite it??? I don't understand how it's scored but it seems like as long as you can write the most common characters and, just from looking at the story, remember how to write a few uncommon ones that were important to the story, you'll be fine.

The writing requires you to summarise a 1000 character story in 400 characters, and not significantly more or less. They give you the story for ten minutes, then they take it away and you have to write your 400 characters in 35 minutes.

You start off with 100% and they deduct marks for mistakes, getting the story wrong and excess word count. 450 words might be OK, but my teachers urged me to try to get as close to 400 as possible. After 450 words you start losing serious amounts of marks.

You have to do some practice to develop a feel for how long 400 characters is. Being able to summarise 1000 characters in 400 characters is a very specific skill. I could even imagine a native speaker who did the writing section without preparation writing more than 600 characters and failing as a result. You also need to make sure you understand Chinese writing conventions, for example, I understand that you lose marks for not indenting paragraphs by two spaces. One on one tutoring from teachers who know what is required is a big help with this section, the real requirements are not that obvious just from reading the exam paper.

I actually think that this is a harder and better test than an open-ended essay question where you can say whatever you like. 400 characters is different enough from 1000 characters that you really do have to be able to express yourself in your own words. Unless your Chinese is really exceptionally good, it is going to be patently obvious from your 400 characters that it was written by a foreigner, although since the pass mark is only 60% that is not necessarily a big problem.

As compared to an open ended essay question where you can say whatever you like, you lose marks for misunderstanding or misremembering parts of the story or leaving out something important and if you are not able to write a rarer character that is important to the story you can find yourself in trouble.

I don't really hand-write

There is the option to do the test online and type the writing section. I can write by hand and on a good day I think I should be able to get 60%, but typing is easier so I did that (and got 71%). There are swings and roundabouts though, if there is a character important to the story that you don't know, on the handwritten test you can just try to remember how to write it, but this obviously won't work if you are typing. I remember not being able to type 憋住气 on practice exam I did about a rabbit who tried to commit suicide (he discovered it was impossible for rabbits to commit suicide like that and was acclaimed as a great scientist by the other rabbits. Most of the stories are nowhere near that bad.)

The reading is easy except for speed.

I think you do need quite a large vocabulary as well (although passive vocabulary is good enough). And being able to read that fast is a non-trivial skill.

The listening is, in my opinion, WAY too easy. I don't even consider myself good at listening, and I think it's too easy. It's certainly much easier than, say, watching a TV show. Yet it seems like the highest level should be at least as difficult as someone would encounter in everyday usage.

This wasn't my experience, maybe there are exceptions for special cases, but I wouldn't expect someone not comfortable watching Chinese TV to be able to pass the HSK6 listening. I did find the language to be at least as difficult as everyday usage and it can go by quite quickly with not a lot of context (and no subtitles or pictures).

However, I understand most of the people who do the HSK6 are Japanese and the test is to some extent designed around them. They have a big advantage in reading and writing since they have been using characters since kindergarten. So it makes sense that the listening part of the test would relatively be the easiest for a Westerner, perhaps by a large amount.

Overall, while the HSK6 is definitely easy for a top level test, I wouldn't say it was an easy test. I've said on another thread that I think it is probably a C1 level test and if the pass mark was raised high enough it could actually be a good top level C2 test.

[gringles007]

So, they have changed the HSK. I took the old advanced one back in 2007, and then basically forgot about it.

This being my tenth year in China, I have suddenly become all nostalgic about stuff I have done in the past. Then I discover that the HSK has been revamped, the highest level now being a 6 as opposed to the prized 11.

To be honest, it's not that the bar is too low as such, it's just the level of proficiency that the top level equates to is nowhere near as high as it claims to be.

I arrived in China in 2003, with no prior background in Chinese. Did the HSK intermediate in 2005, I think it was, and then did the old advanced in 2007. Ended up getting a 10, just shy of an eleven in terms of total points.

That was quite a few years ago now. Looking back to how good my Chinese was then, to be honest, I would have struggled to read a novel at all, or to have engaged in a fairly advanced conversation.

I think the exam was tough because of its merciless design, not because it really equated to a high level of actual proficiency.

Anyway, the nostalgia continues. Guess I'll never get the chance to go after the prized 11.

[Tangmu]

gringles007 - "Looking back to how good my Chinese was then, to be honest, I would have struggled to read a novel at all, or to have engaged in a fairly advanced conversation."

You passed the Old HSK at grade 10..and you couldn't read a novel or have an advanced conversation? Seriously? When I took the test (which I admittedly failed, in particular the grammar and writing components, the other parts were ok) I was definitely comfortable reading novels and with most topics of conversation (and at least good enough to pass the oral exam with flying colours). How did you manage it?

[gringles007]

You passed the Old HSK at grade 10..and you couldn't read a novel or have an advanced conversation? Seriously?

Yeah, was going for an eleven too. Just fished my scores out of an older post:

Listening 76

reading (58) (failed to complete the section)

zonghe 88

zuowen 84

koushi 88

I didn't read my first novel until after I had done the test. That was 风云第一刀 by 古龙。 It took me quite a while to finish it. I could understand it fine, but no fluency. The same was true with my listening. I could maybe get 70-80% on a TV program about 社会与法律, and a bit less for the news.

I am, of course, much better at reading and listening now, but reading speed is still a major issue.

With regard to the writing, I seriously doubt that it required Chinese college level standards, or anything close to that, as I remember hearing some people say. I presented a simple argument with an introduction, an example or two, and then a conclusion (with a few 成语 thrown in for good measure). That seemed to be enough. Completion and cohereance is what they were looking for, not finesse. (The laowai behind be handed in a blank page; another laowai female left half way through in tears)

With regard to the 综合 section, I had been living in China for four years at the time, reading the newspapers and speaking to people everyday. it just seemed to stand out which ones sounded wrong I suppose, or which character needed to be inserted.

[Tangmu]

Great! You are right about the writing, nothing like college level is required, the problem is making sure there has been sufficient time to practice free hand writing up to a reasonable communicative level - which is a skill that most people (including me unless I'm studying) don't generally use much.

I also agree that reading speed is an issue even with a fairly high level of Chinese, being able to read and reading for pleasure at a good pace without becoming tired are different things entirely..The key is of course to develop the habit to read regularly every day but unfortunately work is so busy I sometimes can't do that.

Anyway, I have been re-inspired by you to do a mock of the Old-HSK over Qing Ming - will see what scores I come out with this time around!

[gringles007]

Anyway, I have been re-inspired by you to do a mock of the Old-HSK over Qing Ming - will see what scores I come out with this time around!

Good luck! Keep us posted!

Do they still have the old website with the mock papers?

Also, quite interested to know if anyone has passed the new HSK. What kind of profficieny would a 5 or even a 6 translate to in the real world?

And was the old one really too difficult? Or were we all just too lazy to pratice writing?