(NPPLC) Chapter #3 - Yet One More Proverb

[navaburo]

This thread is for the discussion of chapter three in A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese by Paul Rouzer.

Please keep in mind DrWatson's ground rules posted in the first lesson's thread.

For general discussion and a schedule for the study group, please see the proposal thread.

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I really enjoyed this lesson. My wish from last week was at least partially fulfulled: we get some clarification as to the meaning of 仁，愛，etc.. However, the meaning is not totally clear: What do y'all think the pronoun 之 is referring to in the sentences of the form ”仁之所在，天下愛之。“? Does it refer to the place (所在) or to that which is found there (仁) ? The provided translation has the same ambiguity.

Other than that issue of interpretation, a few things popped out at me:

The direction of 去 with respect to its object seems to be nearly the opposite in 文言 as in 普通話: In Classical we write 去水 to mean "to abandon the river" but in Mandarin you say "去圖書館“ for "to go to the library" (although that is a coverb role). I'll be on the look-out for modern idioms that maintain this old sense of 去.

From a grammatical angle, I'm not certain how to parse the 所+V construction. Is 所 the head here? Anyways, I'm really enamored of this 所 business; I love the symmetry with the 者 construction.

[xuexiansheng]

I did pretty well with this lesson, but I mangled the last set of examples. But I think I have my confusion sorted now.

However, the meaning is not totally clear: What do y'all think the pronoun 之 is referring to in the sentences of the form ”仁之所在，天下愛之。“? Does it refer to the place (所在) or to that which is found there (仁) ? The provided translation has the same ambiguity.

@navaburo

I thought it was kind of like (subject:(仁的所) comment: (在)), (subject: (天下) comment: (愛它)). [i swapped out the modern character.] I first did a rough translation of "where kindness is, everyone loves it" and Rouzer has about the same "Where kindness resides, all the world loves/cherishes it." (p. 367) So, I think the 1st 之 is definition #1 on p.13 "A particle that connects nouns or noun clauses; see discussion 2.1" and the 2nd 之 is definition #2 on p.13 "Him, her, it, them [direct object pronoun]." So I read the second one as "it, or the place where kindness is".

[OneEye]

xuexiansheng's got it, although I don't think he's analyzed the sentence structure correctly. The topic is 仁之所在 (the place 所 at which kindness 仁 exists 在), and the comment is 天下愛之 (the 之 refers back to the topic).

[xuexiansheng]

@OneEye

That makes much more sense, since the 'it' that is being referred to is in the 1st phrase (仁之所在). Thanks!

[navaburo]

Here's the parsing I came up with for this week's text. If anyone else is attempting this, let me know what technique you use. I would prefer not having to draw the circles around the phrases, but I don't know how else to indicate the phrase relationships.

[Zeppa]

In the second of the first practice set - translate into English - there's a negative missing, isn't there? according to the author's translation.

[navaburo]

Agreed.

[Zeppa]

That's a relief - my brain is still working.

I found I was doing the opposite to what the translation-into-Chinese exercise wanted: first nonpartitive and then partitive.

Onward.

[somethingfunny]

The difficulty is really starting to pick up now with these unfamiliar 之 and 其 uses.  I actually came on here to see if anyone else had a problem with the missing negative in the second practice translation - thankfully it wasn't some ambiguous meaning in 怨 as I had feared it might be (I still have flashbacks to lesson 2's 谋 meaning both "to plot" and "to plot against").

 

I'm only halfway through the lesson, I'll keep working through and come back with any more questions later. (I'm aware no-one has posted here for 2 years, and that I may never get a response.)

 

As for the original poster's comment on 去, I haven't got to that part of the lesson yet but it sounds like what you're referring to is similar to its use in phrases like 去火. This use always confused me, especially when I first started learning Chinese and hadn't yet come to terms with the different sounds of 出 and 去, indeed I spent most of my time thinking people were saying 出火 as that made much more sense translated into English (think 出结果 or anything similar).

[stapler]

The classical use of 去 "to abandon" here makes sense to me. In Mandarin 去 doesn't just mean "go to somewhere", it also means leave where you are. This sounds weird but think about how it works with 來. In particular, think about 回去 and 回來. In both of these something is going "back" somewhere. But with 去 you're leaving (abandoning) your position and with 來 your returning to your original position. So "去水" I read as "leave the water/river [and go to somewhere else]". Sorry I  can't explain it better. But there is a logical connection between the Mandarin and the 文言 use.

 

I haven't had much trouble yet (just did the first 3 lessons today). While doing this chapter I turned back to the second lesson to read 之 again (it seems like lots of people didn't) and you'll see it operates not just as modern 的 but also as a pronoun. Discovering this made everything click fairly easily. The author doesn't tell you about this new use because as he makes clear in the introduction, he wants you to go and carefully look again the meanings of the characters from previous lessons to help you build up your abilities to grasp the changing meanings of the characters.

 

Also the difference between 之 and 其 is a bit like 他，她，它 and 那個，這個, etc. Rouzer also mentions classical writers have a preference for the latter. EG. they like to say "this virtue" rather than "his virtue" or "its virtue". But both refer to the same thing.

 

The explanation of 所 was very illuminating. Not only does 所有 make sense to me now, so does the actual use of 所 on anything. I remember seeing it everywhere in some Mao era writing. And actually as a broad comment, learning the classical use of 為， 以， 而, etc I'm finding is all very useful for understanding modern Mandarin. I hope 然 comes up soon!

[somethingfunny]

Hi stapler!  Glad there is someone else looking at this book at the same time as I am.

 

I think the closest use of 去 in modern mandarin that I can think of is in 出去 which I translate as "to go out and leave".  I think its probably best to not try too hard to find links between ancient and modern definitions that don't necessarily exist.

 

As for 之 and 其, my understanding is that while both are personal pronouns, the latter is a possessive personal pronoun. 之=him/her/他/她, 其=his/hers/他的/她的.

 

So from this lesson we can see 万物得其本者生 here the 其 is acting like "it's (roots)". Where as 道之所在，天下归之, here the second 之 (the first one is your straight-forward 的) is "there".  Which I guess means it doesn't necessarily have to be personal in nature, but certainly doesn't have the possessive nature that 其 does.

[stapler]

Ahh yes, I have since learnt my mistake with the 其 and 之!