(NPPLC) Chapter #4 - Guan Zhong Shows Up Late

[navaburo]

This thread is for the discussion of chapter four in A New Practical Primer of Literary Chinese by Paul Rouzer.

Please keep in mind DrWatson's ground rules posted in the first lesson's thread.

For general discussion and a schedule for the study group, please see the proposal thread.

--

Take it away!

By the way, don't despair, Dr. Watson sends his regards: he'll be back soon.

[navaburo]

The Duke's Terse Lines:

I like how the Duke's first quote is entirely in four character groups. If we just had that quote alone we would have no idea what he is talking about. But given the previous line of narration the terse use of the verbs 飲, 期, etc are disambiguated. (At least, it becomes clear after a quick look at the translation ).

於 and 在：

I'm impressed at the versatility of 於 -- it really is an all purpose preposition! In the translation exercises, I was tempted to use 在 as an 'at' or 'in' preposition, as in "在高樹飲"; but I suppose that is just my modern Chinese bias. (Rouzer gives "飲於高樹"). I wonder if 在 can be used as a preposition in Classical... or is it restricted to verb roles such as "魚在水"?

為 and 以：

The difference between 'for the sake of' and 'in order to' is not totally clear.

For classical->english exercises 8 and 9 I wrote:

君為成禮期日

and

公為德公所愛棄禮乎

Call this pattern S+wei+X+V+O

I wonder if that is possible in addition to Rouzer's pattern of S+V+O+yi+X.

Is it that 為 takes a noun phrase whereas 以 can take a sub-sentence?

[xuexiansheng]

This chapter was a little less clear because of some simple mistakes. The problem came from my misunderstanding 管仲後至. I thought that the lord set a date, then 管仲 came after that at the appropriate time. So, the questioning and the comments didn't make much sense. Finally, (after checking the translation) it was clear that 管仲 came after the feast and was therefore tardy to his lord's summons. Which made his pouring out the wine all the more surprising, and prompted the question from his lord as why he would come late AND pour out the wine (and 管仲's witty answer that pleased his lord and saved his life) make much more sense. Funny how a little misunderstood word like 後 can entirely mess up my understanding of the text.

@navaboro

於 and 在：

I'm impressed at the versatility of 於 -- it really is an all purpose preposition! In the translation exercises, I was tempted to use 在 as an 'at' or 'in' preposition, as in "在高樹飲"; but I suppose that is just my modern Chinese bias. (Rouzer gives "飲於高樹"). I wonder if 在 can be used as a preposition in Classical... or is it restricted to verb roles such as "魚在水"?

為 and 以：

The difference between 'for the sake of' and 'in order to' is not totally clear.

For classical->english exercises 8 and 9 I wrote:

君為成禮期日

and

公為德公所愛棄禮乎

I did both of these things in the translations. Unfortunately I don't have an answer to either.....

[somethingfunny]

Despite the first impression of the text being a little daunting, I didn't come across too many problems in this Chapter.  The translation exercises are a little more difficult to nail exactly first time now that they're more complex, but that's to be expected.  Actually, I only came across two questions in this chapter and they are the exact two raised by Navaburo... I also used 在 in place of 于 and 为 in place of 以.  The second of these I can more easily come to terms with, but I was actually a little taken aback by the whole 于 in the tree thing.  I originally went for 在高树饮 (I actually unintentionally added an extra 酒 on the end, after all, what else are you going to be drinking in a tall tree?) but feel that 在 would act equally well as a preposition: 饮在高树.  I guess this could be misinterpreted as drinking at the tall tree, whereas 于, the true all purpose preposition, contains sufficient ambiguity to cover in the tall tree - but I might be getting ahead of myself on this one.

[stapler]

Interestingly I had precisely the same problems as everyone else, even down to also writing 在高樹飲酒！It definitely has to have something to do with reading modern Mandarin back into Wenyan. I've really liked using 所 this lesson too and I always managed to get that part of the translating exercises correct. Hoorah!

 

爲 and 以 was a bit unclear for me. I started thinking it might have something to do with word order. But then I realised that wasn't it. The clue is in the examples Rouzer gives

 

The main thing is to stick to the definitions more strictly:

以- 1. with, by means of 2. in order to

This is "mechanical" or "functional" - in order to achieve something

 

爲 - 2. For the sake of, because of, on behalf of

Which, if you read the examples in 4.2 - is all about doing things for someone else (the people, the father, the duke) or the 4.8.10 exercise (for the sake themselves, for their sons)

 

 

The 於 and the 在 problem is definitely a downside of thinking in Mandarin! I'd be curious what a Japanese learner does (assuming 在 doesn't serve the same function as it does in Mandarin). I think the safest bet for now is to just use 於 all the time! Having a careful look at the definition of 在 though makes it a bit clearer:

 

在 - to be located in [a place]; to be at [a place]; to exist; to be living

 

This seems to suggest that 於 covers "at a place", "heading towards a place", etc. The only time to use 在 is when you simply what to start what exists at a location. So when we write 飲在高樹 or 在高樹飲 we're actually saying something like "Drinking is at the tall tree" or "The tree which exists drinks". When you see 魚在水而不聞 you can use 在 because fish exist there. So I think you could almost write something like 魚在水而於水玩 - "the fish which exist in the water play in the water". I dunno if this is correct or helpful though. Just what I've decided to work with for now.

 

 

The 後至 also caught me off guard. I even checked Rouzer's note for 後 and it has the usual "later, after, etc" but never any sense of being 遲到！It really is import to keep a broad mind when interpreting Wenyan

[somethingfunny]

I think it helps to really focus on 於 as having a strictly prepositional meaning, and 在 as not performing this function.  While in modern mandarin it would be acceptable to say 他在家喝酒 for "He is drinking at home", this would not be ok in classical chinese because 在 does not act as the preposition "at".  I agree with the way you translated 饮在高树 but would be reluctant to accept 在高树饮 as something that makes sense in classical chinese.  

 

Rather than use the "exist" translation of 在 I feel it's much more straightforward to interpret it as "to be located at", which while essentially equal in meaning to what you have given, I feel is little less cumbersome.  But that's just personal preference.

[stapler]

Re 在高樹飲: I wanted to say that it is wrong (and 飲在高樹)

 

Ahh yes. I think your definition of 在 is much easier.