Accents are killing me....

[anonymoose]

Haha well the better question is, was this because of your pronunciation or because of this white-effect?

Well, I don't claim to have great pronunciation, though the vast majority of the time I have no problem communicating. But regardless, even if my pronunciation were bad, I'm sure had the person used his ears rather than eyes, he would have heard that I wasn't speaking English, even if he couldn't understand my Chinese.

[eion_padraig]

@johnk, how is that the horse and zebra analogy different than the waiguoren affect?

I think the whole point is that the average Chinese person with little contact with foreigners doesn't expect foreigners to speak or understand Chinese.

When I lived in Shanghai some years ago it was terribly common for me to hear Chinese people speak about me openly in shops and small restaurants (these were in outer districts were there were few foreigners living) thinking I couldn't understand. Usually the talk was not mean-spirited, but sometimes I would strike up conversations depending on the circumstances, and there was usually a lot of surprise.

I definitely experienced the waiguoren effect, and saw it happen numerous times with obvious foreigners that had better speakers of Mandarin than I. However, it was fairly infrequent given the number of times I interacted with Chinese people and I saw others interact. I would expect it to happen less now as more foreigners with strong Chinese skills live and work in China.

-----------------

As for accents, it's just a matter of exposure and learning to adjust. It can be harder in places with people from all over China with various accents. The people born and raised in Shanghai typically didn't curve their tongue (retro flex?) for ch-, sh-, zh- sounds when speaking Mandarin, which made 十四，四十, and 四十四 hard to understand for a brand new learner of Chinese. The Chinese hand symbols for numbers proved invaluable for the first year.

I think learning Mandarin in a place where people speak very clear Mandarin can work against you if you don't get exposed to accents that differ from the ideal once in a while. I found speaking with people from Heilongjiang province 黑龙江省, or Taiwan to be much easier after sorting out what Shanghainese people were saying. Good language training exposes people to a variety of accents. It's important for English language learners to hear British, American, and Australian speakers and the non-standard versions too. I'll tell you some of the Southern US accents around here are thick. You're badass when an ELL, you can identify a native English being either a Kiwi or an Australian (or Canadian versus American). I think you're equally badass when you can whether a Chinese person is from Sichuan or Henan province from their accent when speaking Mandarin. Sometimes verbal tells can be very subtle accent or even small differences in diction.

I really love thinking about the socio-political implications of how people speak languages.

[johnk]

@johnk, how is that the horse and zebra analogy different than the waiguoren affect?

I was just trying to point out that it is not exclusively a foreigner in China effect. In my example an Asian person on a flight from London to China was assumed to be Chinese.

I think the whole point is that the average Chinese person with little contact with foreigners doesn't expect foreigners to speak or understand Chinese.

I agree. I would also guess that the average Chinese person is correct in that many or even most foreigners in China can't speak or understand Chinese.

People in general make assumptions based on their circumstances and experience. Sometimes they can be wrong and may take a while to adjust. I have seen a few really spectacular and fun incidents where people get this kind of stuff wrong.

The point about English accents is also true. Many people from southern England can have real difficulty understanding a Newcastle or Glaswegian accent.

It is not just a Chinese thing.

[Guest realmayo]

johnk, if someone from China or Uganda or Bangladesh walked into a shop in an average English town and asked to buy a pack of cigarettes or whatever the shopkeeper would not be thinking "there's no way on earth this person is going to speak comprehensible English to me so I won't even try to listen".

Your example about the person on an aeroplane is the opposite, comparable to a Polish person walking into a shop in England and not being able to speak any English despite the shopkeeper assuming otherwise.

But I take your point, outside of a forum about the Chinese language it could be misleading to label it a "waiguoren effect" because it's of course not just a Chinese thing, there isn't a Chinese gene that creates this or a unique cultural upbringing (and I'd say it's no criticism of Chinese people to record and chuckle about such instances). It boils down to how the human brain works in certain situations. I remember being in France with a Chinese friend who spoke better French than me and a couple of times he'd say something perfectly comprehensible to someone in the street who would look bemused, then look at me for an explanation, but when my friend tried a second time they understood fine.

[Balthazar]

johnk, if someone from China or Uganda or Bangladesh walked into a shop in an average English town and asked to buy a pack of cigarettes or whatever the shopkeeper would not be thinking "there's no way on earth this person is going to speak comprehensible English to me so I won't even try to listen".

True, but then again, Chinese is nowhere near being the lingua franca that English is (regardless of whether it may be so in the distant future or not, or that it's the most common mother tongue in the world). How many non-Chinese speak Chinese compared to how many "non-English" (i.e. not from a English speaking country) speak English? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to compare the two.

I'm not saying that there might not be some cultural thing at play as well, though (I wouldn't know).

[Guest realmayo]

but then again, Chinese is nowhere near being the lingua franca that English is

First, it's only a lingua franca in China. Second, I'm aware that English is widely spoken throughout the world, but there's a difference between expecting someone to understand you because of how they look, and your brain disregarding words you'd normally understand because of how they look.

[OneEye]

it's only a lingua franca in China

What about Taiwan and Singapore?

[imron]

Inseparable parts of China!!!

[Guest realmayo]

Absolutely comrade.

[Balthazar]

First, it's only a lingua franca in China. Second, I'm aware that English is widely spoken throughout the world, but there's a difference between expecting someone to understand you because of how they look, and your brain disregarding words you'd normally understand because of how they look.

Not disagreeing with any of this, just saying that making the comparison between England and China doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

As a Norwegian who used to work in a grocery store, it did happen (although very rarely) that I thought a customer was trying to communicate with me in his/her own language. Instead of responding with "Sorry I don't speak English" (obviously, being familiar with English, I would know that this was not the language being used by the person), I would spend maybe one or two seconds before realizing that it was in fact Norwegian being spoken. So I can understand how a Chinese person, especially one not familiar with any languages besides Mandarin, would assume that something not completely comprehensible would be a foreign language. If this person finds the situation somewhat stressful/embarrassing, it is even more understandable. Whether this is more prevalent in China/East Asia, than elsewhere, I have no idea.

[Guest realmayo]

something not completely comprehensible

This isn't what's being discussed here. We're talking about something that would be completely comprehensible if it came out of a mouth belonging to an (in this case) Asian face.

[eion_padraig]

@johnk Yes, I understand and agree that it has broader implications.

I would be interested to know if this happens in Taiwan the same/as frequently as in China. Anyone deal with this in Taiwan? I've never heard from of this situation happening from people I know who lived there, but it wouldn't totally surprise me if it does.

I think it's unlikely to happen in Singapore since people are much more exposed to English, and the linguistic environment is much more complex. Granted if someone started speaking Singlish to me, I'd probably have a hard time.

[OneEye]

eion_padraig, see my post #20 in this thread. On the whole, most people don't do this. People who don't speak much English are often embarrassed or even scared to speak any to a foreigner, so when I walk up and speak Chinese they're usually more than happy not to have to. But some people do have a hard time processing that a white guy could possibly be speaking Chinese, as in the example in that post. Those who actually have good English don't tend to get confused about which language I'm speaking.

What's frustrating is when people switch back and forth between English and Chinese. When I'm expecting Chinese and hear English it takes me a second to realize what they've said, and vice versa (which I think may shed some light on the frustrations people have expressed in this thread). In my experience, these people are usually trying to show off their English knowledge rather than trying to help, because they only change the most basic words in the sentence into English words (that is, the words they know off the top of their heads): "文字和語言都是我們人類最 important 的表情達意的工具。" Thanks for the help, there.

I get a lot of sign language from people too. I've gone into a milk tea shop, ordered and paid for myself and my friends all in Chinese, only for the 服務生 to give me this ridiculous "holding a bag" sign language and a "Do you understand what I'm saying?" expression as they say "需要袋子嗎？BAG!!!" Now, even my wife, who has never studied Chinese, knows what 袋子 means and can answer 要 or 不要, so I don't really know why they think this is necessary. If they seem like they've got a decent sense of humor, sometimes I say "不好意思，我不會手語。國語比較好溝通。" Most people laugh about it, and I've even made a few friends this way.

It seems like a lot of Taiwanese people know they do this, and that it's ridiculous to do it. It's like a conditioned response to a white face for a lot of people, and I think it partly stems from the way a lot of parents teach their kids to view white foreigners as simply an opportunity to practice English. A few weeks ago I was waiting at the bus stop and a mom walked past with her toddler daughter. "嘿，跟他講一些英文，好不好。" Never mind that I might have been unable to speak a word English for all she knew.

Now part of this is that I don't live downtown anymore. I live on the very outskirts of Taipei, where there are a lot fewer foreigners and a lot more uneducated people. In town, especially near the universities, people hardly bat an eye at a Chinese-speaking white guy. Anyway, I don't usually take any offense to it, because most people don't mean anything by it, and they're nearly all super nice about the whole thing anyway. In their minds, they're helping you by throwing out a few words of bad English, even if they are also trying to show off a little.

It also works the other way too. Many Taiwanese people have a serious thing against ABC/ABTs and MITs (Made in Taiwan, kids who grew up here but then went to the US or elsewhere for high school and college before coming back). A former student of mine refused to hire an ABC to teach her daughter English, because "ABCs don't have good English." Never mind this person grew up in California and got his BA in English from the University of Chicago. The evidence that ABCs have bad English? "Their Chinese isn't very good, so their English must not be either." Again, never mind that they grow up in an English-speaking environment rather than in Taiwan.

However, younger people seem to be much less likely to be this way. I chalk it up to a much higher percentage of people with university degrees and experience in foreign countries than before, as well as there being more foreigners here in Taiwan to interact with.

[tooironic]

Agreed about how annoying code-switching can be. Sometimes it's fine, but other times it can be really confusing. I can't count the number of times a Chinese person has been talking to me in Mandarin for a few minutes - and I'm understanding everything that's being said - until suddenly they put a random English word in the sentence and I have to ask them what they are trying to say. I guess I need to brush up on my Chinglish/heavily-accented English.

[Xuelan]

I had no idea my post was going to cause so much controversy!

I promise you, 陳德聰, it was because of my white face, not my pronunciation. I wasn't talking about situations in which my lack of vocab, incorrect sentence structure or even nervousness led to me not being understood; I was talking about instances when I KNOW that I'm saying something right and they still don't understand.

I'll give you an example. The situation where it happened most often was on the bus. I took the bus to and from school every day. This particular bus hadn't been upgraded to one where you could use your card, so in addition to the bus driver they had a person who took your money - how much you paid depended on how many stops you went. There were multiple different drivers and money takers. Some worked it often enough that they got to know me and I didn't even have to tell them where I was going. But occasionally I'd find one that would just give me a blank stare or say "什么?" over and over again until someone stepped in to repeat what I was saying and they magically understood it.

What was this oh-so-difficult-to-pronounce stop I was trying to say? 明德门. Seriously. Ming2 de2 men2. The locals tended to pronounce it 明德门儿, so I typically said it that way as well. I'd get on, say "明德门儿", nothing, then "明 德门", still nothing. Over and over again till I got so frustrated I either handed him the exact change or someone else said it for me.

This happened several times and so I would ask my teachers, my Chinese friends, heck, anyone who knew me enough, to please correct my pronunciation if I needed it, but down to the last they said I was saying it just fine and they couldn't understand what was wrong with the guy(s) on the bus! I mean really, those are some of the easiest to pronounce words in the Chinese language. Even IF you have terrible pronunciation, you should be able to get yourself understood when you're saying 明德门儿!

I really don't know why 陳 德聰 seems to be so resistant to the idea that I could have good pronunciation. It's not like I came on here and said "my Chinese is absolutely perfect and I'm totally the female 大山!" I fully admit that the rest of my Chinese skills are lacking, but I have always had a good ear for languages and accents. As a child growing up in the American south, I intentionally lost my southern accent by mimicking the people I watched on TV. I now speak with what I call a "generic American accent" and have been told by many foreign-language speakers (and even English-speakers from other countries) that they can understand my English better than most any American they've ever met. Most Americans can't tell what part of the country I'm from and no one's ever guessed the south. I am also aware that Chinese teachers will lie to you to make you feel better (so you don't lose face) about how good your pronunciation is, as I have been very rudely told by other Chinese-learners in the past. However, my Chinese teachers would take me into other classrooms just to show me off to the teachers, take me into the office to show me off to the principle and staff, give me tongue twisters to read just to hear me, etc. After the first month or two of fixing my SH vs. X sounds, they rarely ever corrected my pronunciation or tones. I may not know as many words or understand as much as I should, but I can darn well pronounce 明 德门 understandably.

[xiaocai]

I think you really should not be concerned about what one person says about your accent. It's just his, or her, opinion. And this person may not have met you at all, so who is he/she to judge how good your Chinese is? The Chinese person you spoke to might just be expecting you speaking with a very heavy foreign accent and was surprised and was not unable to process the information it carried. I'd think it would be common in China, because as the title of this thread implies, many Chinese speak with heavy regional accents too. Anyway, I really hope to hear more about experience on Chinese accents from people who speak Chinese as a second language, because I think that is what this thread is all about but as I can see, half of the posts here have nothing to do with it.

[renzhe]

I can understand the situation better now, actually. 明德门 is not a common word, although the ticket seller should obviously know it. He was probably expecting something else, and the noise on the bus often makes communication difficult. You are probably right, and the fact that you look foreign likely led him to believe that it's your fault he was not understanding, instead of his.

What I think would help in this particular situation is to start it with something like 你好, or a slightly longer greeting (which he might reply to in turn), just to establish the fact that you speak the language. The more natural and everyday you make it sound, the better. Then ask for the ticket using a complete sentence, like "我想去明德门站" or similar, and say it clearly and not too fast. The words "我想去" and "站" should help put "明德门" in context, and are much easier to catch on a noisy bus. If it still doesn't fire, say something like "是 XX 大学的那个". In general, I find that establishing a context like this helps immensely in these kinds of situations. Start with something simple, clear and unmistakeable, and do it in a completely confident and matter-of-fact way. Act like a native speaker would. Once they have a second or two to switch to "Chinese mode", things will usually be fine. Often saying more complicated sentences works better than simple things simply because it shocks people out of their wrong expectations and they automatically start listening.

Don't allow him to throw YOU off, if he doesn't understand, describe it fluently in different words. Most of all, you have to look comfortable and confident using the language. If three characters don't get you far, explain it in 30 characters, like a native speaker would. The key is really being fluent and comfortable. If you are not there yet, then misunderstandings WILL happen. Establishing a context with an easier everyday sentence (or several, if possible) will help you with many such situations, though.

There will always be SOME people who will still refuse to understand and talk to you, but you can't help such people anyway. Don't let them bother you. There are plenty of folks out there who will love to talk to you, look for those.

[PathToChina]

The best thing to do is drill the tones before even learning the words. An hour or so per day for a month until you can recite the tones, hear them CLEARLY, and speak them with fluency. Then you're ready to start learning words. This is the best way for getting the tones sorted out.

[abcdefg]

#58 -- I really hope you are wrong about that hard core method. (smile)