Taiwan dialect /Taiwanese

[florazheng]

I speak Taiwanese or South of Fujian Dialect. Our custom is quite similar to Taiwanese because many ppl migrated from Fujian prov. long long ago.

[gato]

Cool. I'd, however, like to propose that the MinNan (闽南） dialect not be called Taiwanese. There are many other languages/dialects spoken in Taiwan. Some of them, the indigenous languages (so-called 高山族) pre-date the Fujian migrants. Others, like Hakka, date to about the same time.

It's true that MinNan speakers are the largest in numbers, but does that make it right to call it Taiwanese to the exclusion of all other languages spoken in Taiwan? It would be like considering only Mandarin to be Chinese.

[florazheng]

All right. Thanks for correction. Cheers!

[florazheng]

hmmmm, but sometimes Taiwanese asked me "你会讲台语吗？＂ S/he meant Minnan dialect undoubtly .

Anyway, as we knew, Minnan dialect is the mainstream dialect in TW.

[gato]

Just a proposal, actually.

I think people in Taiwan call the MinNan dialect Taiwanese, too. The majority MinNan people think they're the real Taiwanese sometimes, I guess.

[Lu]

Taiyu is what the Minnanyu that is spoken on Taiwan is called in Taiwan. You have a point if you say that that is not really fair to the Hakka and the aboriginals, and the waishengren, but fact is that everybody here says Taiyu, I've never met anyone who called that language Minnanyu.

[florazheng]

The majority MinNan people think they're the real Taiwanese

I am taken aback by your quick response. Aha, you are online now too.

I can’t understand what your meaning is in above quote.

I was born and has been living in Minnan and Minnan dialect is sure my first language rather than Mandarin. But I cannot speak Minnan dialect as fluently as Mandarin now. Sometimes I stammer a little because I need to search the equivalent dialect words or expression.

Minnan dialect is called the living fossil for archaic Mandarin because it was past down from the northern of China, like Henan province.

Han nationality is not the real aboriginal in Fujian province. My forefather was from Henan prov. according to the record of our genealogy

[florazheng]

I've never met anyone who called that language Minnanyu.

Roger that. That is what I supposed before. I think it might be a little weird for most Taiwan ppl to call the dialect as Minanyu . I think you, Taiwanese, might will be confusing a little if I say so.

But we only call it Minnanyu in our local but not Taiyu.

Actually, I think gato is right. We should NOT neglect other minority’s culture but the fact is most of us take it for granted, don’t we?

[gato]

The majority MinNan people think they're the real Taiwanese

I can’t understand what your meaning is in above quote.

I think you got what I meant. I was referring the MinNan majority in Taiwan, not you in Fujian

I am taken aback by your quick response. Aha, you are online now too.

I was born and has been living in Minnan and Minnan dialect is sure my first language rather than Mandarin. But I cannot speak Minnan dialect as fluently as Mandarin now. Sometimes I stammer a little because I need to search the equivalent dialect words or expression.

Yeah, that's happening with lots of dialects. Aside from Mandarin, Cantonese and Shanghainese are probably the best preserved. Isn't that right?

[gato]

Taiyu is what the Minnanyu that is spoken on Taiwan is called in Taiwan. You have a point if you say that that is not really fair to the Hakka and the aboriginals, and the waishengren, but fact is that everybody here says Taiyu, I've never met anyone who called that language Minnanyu.

Someone must have called it MinNan Hua when I visited recently because I wasn't even clear what MinNan was or how the character for Min was written before I went. Nobody seemed to be bothered when I called it MinNan Hua, but it's true that the common usage is "Taiwanese," which I find puzzling and ironic in retrospect. The MinNan felt oppressed by WaiShengRen - 外省人 - and the imposition of Mandarin, but aren't they committing the same fault by calling their own dialect Taiwanese to the exclusion of others?

I was reading "Taiwan: A Political History" by Dennis Roy (a researcher at University of Hawaii; the Chinese edition is available in Taiwan). The books tells of violent battles between the MinNan settlers and the aboriginals and also the Hakka -- mostly fights over farm land. Roy believes they set the pattern for later ethnic conflicts.

[ala]

Minnan dialect is called the living fossil for archaic Mandarin because it was past down from the northern of China, like Henan province.

There is no such thing as a living fossil, all languages change over time, and Minnan has absorbed a very large portion of indigenous languages in southern China; in fact it might just be an indigenous Austroasiatic or Austronesian language that has absorbed so much Chinese influences that it is now Sinitic. And what is Archaic Mandarin?

[florazheng]

乡音古乐伴明月——漳州文庙上演传统文化大戏

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2003年09月15日 07:07

　　中新社漳州九月十四日电 题：乡音古乐伴明月——漳州文庙上演传统文化大戏

　　中新社记者 林国瑞

　　　银色的月光下，民间艺人们奏响古乐南词，唱起乡音锦歌；诗词爱好者用闽南语吟诵唐诗宋词……一场传统文化大戏——“文昌之夜”古乐古诗迎金秋晚会十三日夜在千年古建筑、国家级文物保护单位闽南漳州文庙上演。

　　漳州是一座具有悠久历史的文化名城，南词、锦歌、闽南语诗词吟诵是漳州宝贵的民间文化遗产。据史料记载，南词始于唐初，为历朝宫廷雅乐。漳州的南词是清道光年间从江西传入，俗称“赣派南词”。它曲调高雅优美，韵味无穷。漳州南词演奏在“文革”中断。上世纪九十年代，在南词爱好者杨镇江等人的努力下，重新组建了“霞东钧社”，漳州南词再现华彩。在文庙庭院中，由漳州艺术馆“霞东钧社”古乐队演奏的南词正韵《天官赐福/禄星》、十全腔《虞美人》等乐曲，让现场的听众再一次体验了雍容典雅、原汁原味的宫廷逸韵。

　　锦歌是最具乡土气息的闽台民间说唱艺术。一百二十年前，漳州城区出现第一家锦歌馆“乐吟亭”。建国后，它更名为“龙眼营锦歌社”，是漳州市最负盛名的锦歌社。当晚，“龙眼营锦歌社”的王素华、李惠娜、朱璇以闽南语演唱的锦歌《妙常怨》、《长工歌》和《无影歌》，曲调流畅朴实，内容通俗健康，展示了民间艺术的独特魅力。漳州市西桥小学锦歌队的小朋友表演的儿童锦歌《乡土乡情》，别具一番童趣。

　　　在“圣人”孔子的石雕像旁，漳州诗词学会的会员们也分别用闽南语吟诵了《诗经·秦风·蒹葭》、《乐府·玉阶怨》等古诗词。吟诵是介于朗诵和歌唱之间的一种诵读诗词的方法，也是一门古老、典雅而富有魅力的艺术。闽南语被称为“古汉语活化石”，用闽南语吟诵诗词，韵律和谐，古意十足。

　　　一位年近九旬的老艺人激动地说：“这样的文化盛举，在我有生之年是第一次遇到。”清风、明月、香茗、佳果，古城、古庙、古乐、古诗。恍惚间，时光似乎倒流了千年，传统文化以其特有的单纯和深远引领者现场的每一个人去领略传统的意蕴，聆听历史的回响……(完)

http://www.kong.org.cn/News/2003-9/zhangzhou.htm

[florazheng]

Hi Ala, If you input 閩南語&活化石into internet search engine, such as baidu, google, you can find lots of info.

I am not a linguist and don't know it exactly though it is my mother tongue.

There existed 平，仄，入聲 in archiac Mandarin but 入聲 disappears in modern Mandarin nowaday. But luckily , it is said our Minnan dialect still remain 入聲．Sorry, I am not able to give you an example about 入聲 because I have no idea about it.

Aha, I am now proud of being as Minnan ppl

Cheers!

[florazheng]

Quote:

Quote:

The majority MinNan people think they're the real Taiwanese

I can’t understand what your meaning is in above quote.

I think you got what I meant. I was referring the MinNan majority in Taiwan, not you in Fujian

I got it now. I had though you meant we, Southern Fujianese, think ourself are real Taiwanese.

Confused at first

[florazheng]

The majority MinNan people think they're the real Taiwanese

I supposed they, Han Nationality, don't think so. At least the Taiwanese who I know, know the aboriginal in Taiwan is 高山族 or sth...

I think most of Taiwanese, I mean Han here, learnt their forefathers migrated from mainland.

Taiwan pop singer 張惠妹is 高山族. Her performance is charming though I don't enjoy pop that much.

[gato]

That Taiwan history I was reading said that these aboriginals, 高山族, didn't all originally live in the mountains. They were chased up there by the Fujianese immigrants. People are mean to each other, aren't they?

And there were many tribes, not just one 高山族.

[Quest]

What are some of the characteristics of MinNanYu, I've heard that it's more distant from Mandarin than Cantonese.

[wix]

I don't think the term Taiyu really causes much confusion.

Actually while the language is called Taiyu or Taiwanhua in Mandarin it is often refered to as Hoklo when people speak Taiwanese. This is also what the "majority Minnan speaking ethnic group" in Taiwan call themselves. I am not sure what the characters for Hoklo (if any) are or the exact origin of the word.

[Claw]

I don't know how accurate this tree is, but I found it on wikipedia:

[gato]

I don't think the term Taiyu really causes much confusion.

It's not confusing, but it does slight the other languages spoken by non-MinNanHua speaking Taiwanese. It would be like calling English "American" or "Australian."

Actually while the language is called Taiyu or Taiwanhua in Mandarin it is often refered to as Hoklo when people speak Taiwanese. This is also what the "majority Minnan speaking ethnic group" in Taiwan call themselves.

That's interesting. I wonder when and why people started referring to MinNan Hua as "Taiwanese." My guess is that it was politically-motivated, maybe as a move against the new KMT immigrants.

IN the West, MinNan Hua is also called "Hokkien," which apparently is an old latinized transliteration of Fujian. Since it's a Southern Fujian dialect (unintelligible to Northern Fujianese, I'm told), MinNan would be more accurate. Min is the classical abbreviated name for Fujian province.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=uiioq33c5q37?tname=hoklo&hl=hokkien&sbid=lc02a

Hoklo (福佬, pronounced as 學佬 or 鶴佬) is a slang in Hong Kong referring to Hokkien (or Fujianese) speaking people, or people with Hokkien (or Fujian) origin. A street in Kowloon City is called 福佬村道 (Fuk Lo Tsun Road), literally Hokkien Village Road.

Hokkien can refer to:

- Hokkien (dialect): a Chinese dialect, a member of the Min dialect branch, similar to Taiwanese

- An old transliteration of the name of the Fujian province of China