Divorice rates surge

[wushijiao]

From the China Daily:

Compared with the statistics of 2003, 282,000 more couples divorced with an increase rate of 21.2 percent while 227,000 more couples got married in 2004.

About 995,000 couples chose to divorce at civil administration organs rather than suing at courts in 2004, 304,000 couples more than those in 2003 with an increase rate of 44 percent, which covers 62 percent of the total divorces.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-03/01/content_420456.htm

[website]

China's increasing divorce rate is bad news.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050228/lf_afp/afplifestylechina_050228160127

Marrying someone from China is still statistically better than marrying someone from the USA, Russia, Maldives, or Cuba, though.

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/world/9317225.htm

http://www.divorce-lawyer-child-support.com/help/world-rates.htm

[Dav-X]

increasing divorce rate is not the bad. It reflects higher mobility of citizens and the free choice to leave the unwanted partners. Family is not only a warm home, it can be a hotbed for violence and even murder. The right to divorce will give chinese more choices to solve family problems.

[gato]

Right on, Dav-X. Most marriages I've seen in China have been unhappy ones. Good for them if they have the courage to call it quits and start anew.

[Tsunku]

Not bad news at all, good news in fact.

This one affects me quite personally. I know several people in abusive, unhappy marriages. Many Chinese put up with years of infidelity and neglect simply because divorce isn't socially acceptable. Spousal abuse is common in China, and it is still common just to simply put up with it.

嫁鸡随鸡,嫁狗随狗 -- a saying meaning that a woman should stick with the man she marries, no matter what kind of man he is. A traditional idea which is still very much alive in modern China. This means even if your husband is lying, cheating, abusive, alchoholic, a woman should stand by him. He is her family, even if he's a total dog.

It isn't quite fair to compare divorce rates in China to divorce rates in the west. People in China get married and divorced for reasons very very different from those in the west. Divorce is still much more likely to be a drastic "last step" here in China. It is not something that is undertaken lightly, as the opinions of family, friends, and society are extremely important to the average Chinese person.

More divorce in China means less people stuck in miserable situations with seemingly no way out. I think that everyone deserves happiness. Making a mistake and marrying the wrong person (which happens quite often here, partly because people here marry for drastically different reasons than people in the West) should not condemn a person to a lifetime of unhappiness.

[wushijiao]

Although I generally see the strong Chinese family system as a one of Chinese culture's strongest aspects, I agree with that divorce isn't necessarily a bad thing (that's why my original post was sans-commentary).

Without getting too personal, I know of a certain marriage of two Chinese people of the Red Guard generation. While their marriage isn't completely loveless, it is full of unhidden infidelity and monotonous unhappiness. The two people lose themselves in work and diversions, while avoiding the core issue, that their marriage is unfulfilling.

I think the bigger question is, how does society view these types of marriages? Should a couple stay together out of respect for tradition, the institution of marriage, filial loyalty, and obligation to one's parents and children? Or should one build more satisfying and fulfilling relationships based on love, and perhaps set a more positive template for one's children? I don't know.

Also, especially from a middle-aged woman's point of view, if you get divoriced from a man, using Tsunku's words for a horrible scenario, who is a "lying, cheating, abusive, alchoholic", what next? I think the odds of finding a decent man as a divoriced woman is fairly slim.

Sooner or later a tipping point might occur, with people divoricing in droves as the painful stigma of being a divoriced woman recedes, and rationale for getting married changes.

[studentyoung]

Tsunku said,

More divorce in China means less people stuck in miserable situations with seemingly no way out. I think that everyone deserves happiness. Making a mistake and marrying the wrong person (which happens quite often here, partly because people here marry for drastically different reasons than people in the West) should not condemn a person to a lifetime of unhappiness.

wushijiao said:

Also, especially from a middle-aged woman's point of view, if you get divoriced from a man, using Tsunku's words for a horrible scenario, who is a "lying, cheating, abusive, alchoholic", what next? I think the odds of finding a decent man as a divoriced woman is fairly slim.

I really doubt whether “More divorce in China means less people stuck in miserable situations”. In my opinion, some of them (especially middle age divorced women with her child) just get from one miserable situation to another one.

In traditional Chinese men’s view, a divorced woman means a secondhand. If they are great, wise and powerful enough, their first choice is a firsthand. In marriage, the course for the couple to get used to each other is hard enough. If there is a child with another man’s blood in the family, the husband naturally will feel more unfair, “Why should I work so hard to raise the child without my gene? Am I a fool?”And this will add a landmine for their fragile relationship. (Note: I usually don’t take it for granted that love naturally means great, loyal and selfless and everyone is a saint. I think we are nothing but all mere mortals and sometimes we should give some allowance for the flaws in love and humanity. )

So in this aspect, I agree with wushijiao that “the odds of finding a decent man as a divorced woman is fairly slim.” And that’s reason why so many young women don’t want to marry, or even they get married, they are reluctant to give birth a child. They understand quite well that the marriage relationship is weak and they can only use something strong enough to protect themselves, such as jobs, careers, money, houses, etc. But the impact to the society is terrible, for a society can’t develop well without new generation. What a subtle balance!

It seems like a loss-loss game and no one will win the game finally, if men and women don’t know how to respect each other’s sexual roles, communicate deep to each other’s social functions, understand the pressure in each other’s positions and forgive the differences in each other’s values and logics.

Anyhow, I think I should pass by with my hard-to-be-noticed smile, as soon as possible! (赶紧闪人，一笑而过！ )

[gato]

But the impact to the society is terrible, for a society can’t develop well without new generation.

That's alright. There are too many poeple, anyway.

The only problem is that all these sensitive, self-doubting people who might have been great parents but end up not having kids, while all those egotistical and cruel people are having kids. What would be the consequence of that?

[studentyoung]

That's alright. There are too many poeple, anyway.

Yes, I agree that there are too many people on the world, but the only problem is the age distribution in different age levels are out of rational proportion. The cause is both the birth rate and the death rate are getting lower and lower. That's why so many countries are suffering from an aging society (人口老龄化社会) .

What would be the consequence of that?

I think maybe the answer to the question is the obsequent evolution in population or 人口逆淘汰 in Chinese.

Thanks!

[Tsunku]

Studentyoung, you're absolutely right about Chinese culture seeing a woman as "damaged goods," but does that make this attitude acceptable or right? As for not wanting to raise a child that does not carry your own genes, well, again, is that attitude even remotely acceptable? Instead of condemning the idea of divorce, why not tackle the root of the issue, which is backwards ideas about women, family, and children.

The idea of a divorced woman being damaged goods is absolutely a relic. Do all women marry their first boyfriend? Do all men still demand virginity from a future wife? Maybe some, but certainly not all. And there is another issue too, and that is the assumption that a divorced woman would have to find a new husband, no other choice. Were I to ever get married, and have that marriage end in divorce, I would certainly think very long and hard before ever, ever getting married again, and I wouldn't ever want to be with any man who thought of divorced women as damaged goods.

As for children, a child is not responsible for who his parents are. I've dated a man with who had a child, and I can tell you, whatever I might feel towards the child's mother, the child himself was an innocent beautiful little human being, and I showed him the love and attention any child deserves. People adopt children all the time, and take them into their hearts and homes despite having no blood connection to them. A stepchild should be the offspring of someone you love, and if you love that person enough to marry them, the child should be included in that love, no question. If you can't love the child, then you have no business being with the child's parent.

What you are siting are not arguments against divorce, they are bad attitudes which make people afraid of divorce.

The example I sited may have been extreme, but it is real. I can't imagine any reality in which it would be better to stay with someone who is abusive than to leave. A divorced woman in China may certainly still face stigmas and difficulties, but this doesn't have to remain so for all eternity. Outdated ideas have no place in the modern world. I respect Chinese tradition, but not all traditions are good and need to be kept. If people don't put up with these kinds of attitudes, they will eventually disappear. People need to have the ability to get out of truly bad situations, and Chinese society needs to work to remove the stigma attached to those who make that choice.

[website]

There are some good replies here. I think divorce is awful, though. I know what I am talking about, too,

because my parents are divorced and I am divorced. As a child, I had a comfortable, stable life until my parents divorced and we went from having a new home and a new car to having an old house and used car. Divorce really tore up my family relationships and I am still pained by it. Unless there is some kind of physical abuse or adultery, people should try as hard as they can to make their marriages work.

Statistics show the effects of divorce on society are terrible. Eight of 10 prisoners come from divorced families. Children of divorce are twice as likely to drop out of high school and 3 to 4 times as likely to receive help for emotional problems. A child of divorce has a 75% chance of divorcing in the future. In comparison, children from non-divorced families have a 50% chance of divorcing.

http://www.daveschultheis.com/currentissues/issues/q&a_on_divorce_bill_2002.htm

Divorce is NOT a good thing and countries with low divorce rates like

Sri Lanka and Italy should be proud.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20050308-0332-centenariansstory.html

[gato]

I think maybe the answer to the question is the obsequent evolution in population or 人口逆淘汰 in Chinese.

Young studentyoung, the more common term is "devolution." I've never heard of "obsequent evolution" before. Maybe that's the scientific term.

[studentyoung]

Unless there is some kind of physical abuse or adultery, people should try as hard as they can to make their marriages work.

Dear website, don’t you think sometimes things are far from that simple, though I agree with you completely. At least you should agree that a couple is made up of two separate human beings with their separate minds, and love is something you can’t control with your mind and it becomes more changeable in this crazy world, for most of common people. If you get married with someone don’t love you, and you two live a cold life with a silent and odd atmosphere in your family, do you think you two and your children will be happy any more, and all these will do good to your children?

Divorce really tore up my family relationships and I am still pained by it.

I understand how you feel, sir! Maybe because I was born in a happy family and my parents always protect me so well, I can guess how painful without parents and a happy family.

Statistics show the effects of divorce on society are terrible. Eight of 10 prisoners come from divorced families. Children of divorce are twice as likely to drop out of high school and 3 to 4 times as likely to receive help for emotional problems. A child of divorce has a 75% chance of divorcing in the future. In comparison, children from non-divorced families have a 50% chance of divorcing.

I see what you mean, especially, when I am reading your words, ”A child of divorce has a 75% chance of divorcing in the future. In comparison, children from non-divorced families have a 50% chance of divorcing.” You know what, my dad and one of my friends told me, “In this world, it seems divorce is something more and more common now, and you should not take it for granted that you will escape from it easily. On the contrary, you should learn to accept it as one part of life though it is quite hard. If one day you have to face up to devoice, you should give some allowance to both your partner and yourself. Surely, a mistake at the beginning should not end up with a mistake still. You have your own right and responsibility to search and create your own happiness, and there is no one can do it for you in the world. (Note: My dad has a happy marriage with my mom and my friend is single and comes from a happy family. So you can understand how server the conditions here.)

Divorce is NOT a good thing

I share the same language with you here. No one thinks a cancer or an operation is a good thing, yet if the cancer is hurting your body or even threatening you life, what shall you do? No one likes an operation, but sometimes it is necessary to save yourself, though no one will promise you that you won’t die on the operating table or suffer from any sequelae. So people need to consult doctors or experts in this field and make their own choice. (Note: Maybe more people die on the operating table than in divorce, though I can’t show you any statistics.)

Yes, you are quite right that divorce is not a good thing, but it not a bad thing. It is something quite neutral, and it is up to you to define whether it is good or bad, and to be or not to be.

Like you, I HATE divorce. But I would like to ask you a question, “What if your partner tells you he / she is suffering from the love you give him / her and would like to leave you to find some peace for himself / herself? Do you think you would rather let him / her live in pain than set him / her free?” (Bad, my tears!)

My~ ~! I wish my friend Mr. L. could be here and say some words on it, though he has his happy marriage with his wife. I admire Mr. L. and his family very much!

Finally, please kindly note that I don’t tend to abuse, mock, or laugh at anyone here. If I say something wrong, please excuse me.

[studentyoung]

Young studentyoung, the more common term is "devolution." I've never heard of "obsequent evolution" before. Maybe that's the scientific term

Ah, ~ ~! How can I forget this word “devolution” ?! Thanks for your hint.

In fact, I must confess that the word “obsequent evolution” is self-created.

[studentyoung]

Please let me answer your question little by little, respectful Ms.Tsunku.

The idea of a divorced woman being damaged goods is absolutely a relic.

I agree with you here.

Do all women marry their first boyfriend?

Sorry, I don’t think so either.

Do all men still demand virginity from a future wife? Maybe some, but certainly not all.

Not all, but quite a lot. You can slightly check some Chinese webs and read some comments or posts on them. Even some experts in social issues agree that Chinese females must be careful on pre-marital sex, because it is still quite hard for Chinese males to accept though they don’t care theirs.

Were I to ever get married, and have that marriage end in divorce, I would certainly think very long and hard before ever, ever getting married again, and I wouldn't ever want to be with any man who thought of divorced women as damaged goods.

I don’t know madam, but I would like to say good luck to you. (I mean what I say, please don’t take it as offence. For unknown reason, I feel very sad at present. )

As for children, a child is not responsible for who his parents are. I've dated a man with who had a child, and I can tell you, whatever I might feel towards the child's mother, the child himself was an innocent beautiful little human being, and I showed him the love and attention any child deserves.

My ~ ~ ! I admire you very much! (Bad, my tears again!)

A stepchild should be the offspring of someone you love, and if you love that person enough to marry them, the child should be included in that love, no question. If you can't love the child, then you have no business being with the child's parent.

I agree with you completely and I feel the same way too. But I don’t want to be over idealistic. I once saw some couples suffer from the complicated relationship with their stepchildren. I wonder if we could calm down and face up to a fact that most of people are just mere mortals and sometimes we feel weak and discouraged or even frustrated when we come with something beyond our ability. Love sometimes is not as idealistic as you may think of. I remember I once told someone that love is something far from perfect, because we are not perfect. You can do something is not a good excuse to take it for granted that everyone can do so.

What you are siting are not arguments against divorce, they are bad attitudes which make people afraid of divorce.

What I am siting is neither arguments against divorce, nor bad attitudes which make people afraid of divorce. I would like you to check my words below again, for they are the most important thing that I would like males and females do at the same time.

It seems like a loss-loss game and no one will win the game finally, if men and women don’t know how to respect each other’s sexual roles, communicate deep to each other’s social functions, understand the pressure in each other’s positions and forgive the differences in each other’s values and logics.

In my opinion, the sound and healthy relationship between male and female is grounded on mutual understanding and forgiving. Without mutual understanding and forgiving, each couple don’t know how to get on well with each other.

I respect Chinese tradition, but not all traditions are good and need to be kept.

I respect your words very much. I just want you to take a look at this word, “Everything that can exist in the world is rational.” or “存在即合理” in Chinese.

People need to have the ability to get out of truly bad situations, and Chinese society needs to work to remove the stigma attached to those who make that choice.

I just can say I hope so. Please still kindly note that whether it will be true or not is according to the women’s status, the economy development and the moral atmosphere in the society.

Thanks! (Especially without your post, I could not cry out so many tears!)

[gato]

I respect your words very much. I just want you to take a look at this word, “Everything that can exist in the world is rational.” or “存在即合理” in Chinese.

Isn't there a Chinese proverb that says just the opposite? These proverbs aren't always rational themselves and must therefore be treated with care. I see many irrational things in the world, mostly man-made.

You can slightly check some Chinese webs and read some comments or posts on them. Even some experts in social issues agree that Chinese females must be careful on pre-marital sex, because it is still quite hard for Chinese males to accept though they don’t care theirs.

It used to be that way in the West, too, before the sexual revolution of the 1960s, but now if you want to marry a virgin, you'd probably have to find your wife in Saudi Arabia or something.

As for divorce and parenting, I don't think divorce itself is that important to a child's upbringing. What's important are caring and understanding parents who're willing to put in the effort. Having your parents divorced and separate makes things slightly harder on you as a child, but only slightly. It's horible to see your parents fighting or not speaking to each other. I'm sure there're many children who would have been better off if their parents had divorced instead of staying in an unhappy marriage.

[studentyoung]

Isn't there a Chinese proverb that says just the opposite? These proverbs aren't always rational themselves and must therefore be treated with care. I see many irrational things in the world, mostly man-made.

First of all, I wonder if you could tell me what is this Chinese proverb? (If possible, could you please type in pinyin for me figure it out? ) And let’s get back to the proverb “存在即合理”. For me it means that everything that can exist in the world must be on some object basis or it would be out of the real world, such as Utopia（乌托邦）. In my opinion, rational in this proverb means “objective (客观的)”.

I understand your word. “I see many irrational things in the world, mostly man-made.” very well. So do I. But please kindly note that a coin has double faces. Can you tell me whether economic globalization（全球经济一体化）is rational or irrational?

It used to be that way in the West, too, before the sexual revolution of the 1960s, but now if you want to marry a virgin, you'd probably have to find your wife in Saudi Arabia or something.

Please take a look at this word, “Morality is geographical.(道德应以地域为界。)” I dare not say whether it is right or wrong that someone wants to marry a virgin, but at least for some geographical or cultural reasons, it is quite common that people have different values. In Arctic, Eskimos keep huskies for hunt. When their dogs grow old, they leave them in some isolate area to keep the food chain in Arctic in balance. Can you tell me whether it is right or wrong? By the way, though Utopia is visional, a lot of people are crazy for it, right?

As for divorce and parenting, I don't think divorce itself is that important to a child's upbringing. What's important are caring and understanding parents who're willing to put in the effort. Having your parents divorced and separate makes things slightly harder on you as a child, but only slightly.

Ai ~ ~ a long and deep sigh! Do you think that everyone is as kind, well-educated, rational and thoughtful as you? Sometimes even some adults can’t do so, less say children.

It's horible to see your parents fighting or not speaking to each other. I'm sure there're many children who would have been better off if their parents had divorced instead of staying in an unhappy marriage.

Yes, you can say that again and again! 热烈鼓掌!

[wiz_oz]

What an interesting thread and what interesting views covering both the ideals that we so wish to see and the realities that we have to live with.

As with all things in life, it is not black or white but some shades in between.

As someone long married (and hopefully will remain so), the less you expect of your partner the easier for the relationship. But that is easier said than done.

And as regards gender specific roles and functions, they will always be there. It is unrealistic to expect otherwise as men and women are really different. The key to it all is to forgive,love, compromise, acceptance and trust. And the first attribute should be forgive, the rest can come in any order.

[gato]

First of all, I wonder if you could tell me what is this Chinese proverb? (If possible, could you please type in pinyin for me figure it out? )

I was just kidding. I don't have a proverb ready for you. It's just that people often cite higher authorities for their own opinions without thinking through the reasons, but I see that you're different. More below.

And let’s get back to the proverb “存在即合理”. For me it means that everything that can exist in the world must be on some object basis or it would be out of the real world, such as Utopia（乌托邦）. In my opinion, rational in this proverb means “objective (客观的)”.

Doesn't 合理 mean rational? Why do you think it means objective/客观? To me, 合理 and 客观 are two very different things. Objective means that a view is not biased by personal prejudices, but something could be objectively irrational, a mental patient, for example.

Anyway, “存在即合理," to me, means "everything that exists must have a reason for existence," which is true enough. But it's like saying "every illness has a reason." That doesn't mean that an illness would be a good thing. The phrase itself sounds like one of those rationalization of passivity that's common throughout Chinese philosophy, e.g. Buddhism, Daoism, Confucism, etc.

I understand your word. “I see many irrational things in the world, mostly man-made.” very well. So do I. But please kindly note that a coin has double faces. Can you tell me whether economic globalization（全球经济一体化）is rational or irrational?

Hmm, I think it's rational, but with problems, which can be mitigated if people deal with the problems rationally. How about you?

[studentyoung]

Doesn't 合理 mean rational? Why do you think it means objective/客观? To me, 合理 and 客观 are two very different things.

Yes, you are quite right that “rational” means 合理的 in Chinese. And I also agree with you that 合理 and 客观 are two very different things, usually, not always. I understand your words “Objective means that a view is not biased by personal prejudices” very well. Let me take Utopia as the example as usual.

You understand that Utopia well exists in some people’s mind and it is something quite objective (You can’t say that because you don’t like Utopia and it is visional, it should not exist in people’s mind.).

The truth (i.e. Utopia well exists in some people’s mind.) is rational because it satisfies people’s hunt for paragon (完美的事物).

People’s hunt for paragon is also quite objective. (You can’t change it even though you may not like it.)

So you can draw a conclusion that合理 and 客观 come together at this point, because, in my opinion, what is rational must satisfy some objective conditions at first.

Well, please allow me to use your word, “Anyway, “存在即合理," to me, means "everything that exists must have a reason for existence," again. So for me, what makes a reason is something quite objective. Utopia can exist in people’s mind, because it is objective and rational; but it can’t exist in reality, because in reality it is last of enough objective conditions (or reasons) to make it rational.

Hmm, I think it's rational, but with problems, which can be mitigated if people deal with the problems rationally. How about you?

I share the same idea with you, sir. Your words are really rational.

Thanks so much for your post. You remind me that in Lamaism, Lamas are told to question each other (as one of their homework) to make them understand the reasons in books deeper and deeper.

It's just that people often cite higher authorities for their own opinions without thinking through the reasons, but I see that you're different.

You know what? It was just the root, which made the Cultural Revolution a disaster in Chinese ideology. I hope you have heard of the Cultural Revolution（文化大革命）.

I was just kidding. I don't have a proverb ready for you.

Your frankness shocked me. Anyhow, thanks!