Divorice rates surge

[gato]

You know what? It was just the root, which made the Cultural Revolution a disaster in Chinese ideology. I hope you have heard of the Cultural Revolution（文化大革命）.

Yes, I know it well. I've seen it reenacted in the movies and read about it. My parents lived through it and used to talk about it all the time with their friends. It shattered many hopes and illusions for their generation. I, myself, was still too young, but I still remember learning “你办事，我放心”in first or second grade about Hua Guofeng 华国凤, which I'm sure is no longer taught.

There is an excessive deference to authority in Chinese tradition. It's one of the things that the reformers of the May 4th Movement tried to change. But, as I'm sure you know, people need to feel safe to express their own thoughts, and the condition hasn't always been right for that.

[studentyoung]

but I still remember learning “你办事，我放心”in first or second grade about Hua Guofeng 华国凤, which I'm sure is no longer taught.

My ~ ~ ! I feel very glad that you know Hua Guofeng （Please kindly note that it should be “华国锋” not “华国凤”.） and “你办事，我放心”. You see, it was the word written by Chairman Mao (毛泽东) to华国锋 when Chairman Mao was dying. Please slightly check the link below for you to have some ideas about 华国锋.

http://www.baidu.com/s?wd=%BB%AA%B9%FA%B7%E6&lm=0&si=&rn=10&ie=gb2312&ct=0&cl=3&f=12

There is an excessive deference to authority in Chinese tradition. It's one of the things that the reformers of the May 4th Movement

Ah~ ~ ! Don’t you think that it is a good way to make a country more stable? It is not just the Chinese tradition, some Asia countries, like Japan and Korea, have this problem. The fact about the May 4th Movement is that it has pointed out something irrational in Confucianism, but it hasn't established any new and practical framework of ideology. Finally people had no choice but go back the old way they used to take and try to find some safe in it.

But, as I'm sure you know, people need to feel safe to express their own thoughts, and the condition hasn't always been right for that.

Yes, rightly so. That’s why I can be frank with you but not my government.

Yes, I know it well. I've seen it reenacted in the movies and read about it.

Good, maybe we can chat about the Cultural Revolution some day. But surely not today, for I have been very upset lately.

[gato]

You see, it was the word written by Chairman Mao (毛泽东) to华国锋 when Chairman Mao was dying. Please slightly check the link below for you to have some ideas about 华国锋.

I was surpised to read recently that Comrade Hua is still alive. He's managed to outlive many others of his generation. Quite remarkable. Maybe he was better off having been bumped from the top job.

The fact about the May 4th Movement is that it has pointed out something irrational in Confucianism, but it hasn't established any new and practical framework of ideology. Finally people had no choice but go back the old way they used to take and try to find some safe in it.

Many of the May 4th folks, like Hu Shih and his spiritual mentor Liang Qichao, looked to the West for a model. I'm not sure if they realized how important the ethical foundation laid by Aristotle and the Bible is to Western society and how difficult it would be to transplant that system to China.

Neither Hu nor Liang were Communists. Their Communist counterparts in the May 4th Movement probably were even more fervently anti-Confucianism. Communism itself doesn't provide a full system of ethics. "Rich people bad, poor people good" is hardly sufficient. People do need a broader ethical foundation to guide their actions.

I like the mutual respect and the idea that actions speak louder than words present in Confucist teaching, but I'm against ancestor worship and its support for authoritarianism (particularly within the family, between parents and children). There're passages in the Christian Bible (Paul's letters) that advocates unconditional obedience to rulers, so maybe Confucianism can be re-interpreted or reformed as well.

[studentyoung]

Maybe he was better off having been bumped from the top job.

高处不胜寒。While standing on some high place, you can always feel the chilly wind. 你既然对历史感兴趣，这一点就不用我多费口舌了吧？

Many of the May 4th folks, like Hu Shih and his spiritual mentor Liang Qichao, looked to the West for a model. I'm not sure if they realized how important the ethical foundation laid by Aristotle and the Bible is to Western society and how difficult it would be to transplant that system to China.

I don’t think to copy a western model can handle with all the complex problems in ethical circles in China. Even if we could transplant that system to China, it would not work well, for sometimes we must confess that the oriental ideology is different from the western one. We can’t say what is better than what, because the two kinds of ideology are from tow different cultural backgrounds. We really need to suit the remedy to the case and learn how to take one’s strong points to offset the other’s shortcomings（取长补短）.

Communism itself doesn't provide a full system of ethics. "Rich people bad, poor people good" is hardly sufficient. People do need a broader ethical foundation to guide their actions.

Please kindly note that Communism is some kind of economical or political form, in my opinion, so it can’t offer any full system of ethics. “Rich people bad, poor people good” is not the essential in communism, but just a political slogan for some politicians to achieve their political goals.

I like the mutual respect and the idea that actions speak louder than words present in Confucist teaching, but I'm against ancestor worship and its support for authoritarianism (particularly within the family, between parents and children).

I understand how you feel and I agree that “the mutual respect and the idea that actions speak louder than words present in Confucist teaching”. You know without mutual respect all the relationships become passive and subordinative. For example, subjects (臣民) must obey emperor absolutely even if he orders them to die；son must obey his father absolutely even if his father orders him to die.（君要臣死，臣不得不死；父要子亡，子不得不亡。）（当然还有：君为臣纲、父为子纲、夫为妻纲； 即所为的“三纲”，另外还有“五常”，即：仁、义、礼、智、信。）http://wncj.vicp.net/course/hep/sixiangdaodexiuyang/admin/AddView.asp?addID=B060107）

There're passages in the Christian Bible (Paul's letters) that advocates unconditional obedience to rulers,

You have touched the bone of every religion in the world, to some extend!

People do need a broader ethical foundation to guide their actions.

Could you please explain more on it?Thanks!

[杰声]

Heh I won't comment on the later posts as I'd be way out of my depth of knowledge but I can't agree with the generalisation of divorce as a bad thing. It's practically grouping every married couple in the world into the same catergory which just doesn't work.

My mother is actually twice divorced and I do see it as a good thing. With my father she just made a bad choice and I did see her suffering quite a bit when I was a kid. I thought no less of her when the did divorce and was actually quite happy for her. My father wasn't abusive or alcoholic or anything so horrific, just simply bad with money. He would piss the money away on hair-brained schemes while my mother worked 2 jobs trying to support the family.

I think the problem with divorce is that adults can be a lot more pig-headed and blind when it come to the consequences of divorce than children. If a child can see that their parent(s) is/are suffering then it takes a strange child (or heavy social indoctrination) to think less of their parents for recognising that. I know that the child can suffer if the family breaks in a bad way but if the child grows up in an un-happy household which the child then uses as a model for it's later life then that can be just as damaging.

Personally I'd much rather my child grow up with the idea that sometimes you might have to give some things up and suffer a little to find happiness, rather than the idea that once your in a situation like marriage you have to stick with it for the rest of your life even if it makes you unhappy.

That and the fact that an un-happy marriage can sometimes reflect the results onto the child(ren). I know everyone says they'll love their kids forever and ever but if your in a stressful, un-happy situation then you won't always (though maybe sometimes) be able to give your kids the same un-conditional love as if you were happy.

[gato]

People do need a broader ethical foundation to guide their actions.

Could you please explain more on it?Thanks!

I mean it helps to understand some general principles of morality.

People don't usually consciously thinking about their values as they go about their everyday lives, but those values exist, nevertheless. Moral philosphers merely make those values explicit and put them on paper in a systematic way. Thinking about the principles which one live by explicitly and systematically could help one deal with more complex situations, when intuition fails. Maybe what happened in post-1949 China was that when traditional Confucian moral principles were discredited, people were left unsure about right and wrong, and their more selfish and ultimately more destructive instincts took over.

I recently saw a video of a lecture by Professor Zhu Xueqin (朱学勤), in which he argued that unlike in England and the United States, China's revolutionaries followed the French model and tried to achieve a cultural revolution, as well as a political revolution. Thus, he argued that the Cultural Revolution of 1960s was a just continuation of the May 4th Movement of the 1920s. See http://www.nfcmag.com/2002-06-2/column/54.htm

I disagree with his argument and think the Cultural Revolution had more to do with Mao's wish to regain control of the Party and country than May 4th and cultural reform, but the lecture got me thinking about how much intellectuals and ideas matter.

Sometimes, I don't think they matter much at all and think that intellectuals just talk to each other. But I think that's not really the case. Even though few people read Aristotle, Adam Smith, Confucius, or Mencius, their ideas do get filtered down to the public, get incorporated as a part of the social norm, and influence people's behaviors.

[studentyoung]

Personally I'd much rather my child grow up with the idea that sometimes you might have to give some things up and suffer a little to find happiness, rather than the idea that once your in a situation like marriage you have to stick with it for the rest of your life even if it makes you unhappy.

That and the fact that an un-happy marriage can sometimes reflect the results onto the child(ren). I know everyone says they'll love their kids forever and ever but if your in a stressful, un-happy situation then you won't always (though maybe sometimes) be able to give your kids the same un-conditional love as if you were happy.

All I can say is I agree with you here! (Thank you so much for your words!)I wish my friend Mr. X. could have a look at them, but I just dare not ask him to do so. (Poor Mr. X.! When will your unhappy days end up? )

[studentyoung]

Moral philosphers merely make those values explicit and put them on paper in a systematic way. Thinking about the principles which one live by explicitly and systematically could help one deal with more complex situations, when intuition fails.

I agree with you here. However, I would like you to read the word, “尽信书则不如无书。It would be worse than without books if you took them for granted totally. ” said by Mencius. (《孟子·尽心下》：孟子曰：尽信书则不如无书。Note: In fact that in Mencius’s original words, “书” means “《尚书》” which is a history book recorded some China’s ancient history from 尧 Yao (a fabulous ancient king) to 秦Qin Dynasty. But we Chinese people now almost take the character “书” as the collective noun to understand the whole sentence.)

I still remember quite well that I once read a short Chinese love story named “True Love for Lifetime 一世真情” which described a couple’s true love for their life. In some plot, when they were in the Cultural Revolution, the husband was defined as “an enemy in the masses 人民内部敌人 ”, because his was an intellectual from a landlord family. Some cadres asked his wife to “draw a dividing line 划清界线” with him. This country woman (乡下女人) without knowing some characters （不识几个字）, told those cadres, “I don’t know who is the enemy in the masses, but I know he is a good man. 我不知道谁是人民内部敌人，但我知道他是好人。” As a result, the couple both had to hang a board marked “an enemy in the masses ”on their necks while cleaning the ways in their country each day for 2 years.

I read some books but I seldom accept their words entirely, no matter how perfect the words seem, and in my opinion sometimes we should get over some limits in books (or we can say “words”) to reach truth.

Now I can give you an example. Could you please explain the word “Which comes first, chicken or eggs先有鸡,还是先有蛋?” (Please jump out of the words themselves and take the situation as an organic whole to understand this philosophical question.)

Maybe what happened in post-1949 China was that when traditional Confucian moral principles were discredited, people were left unsure about right and wrong, and their more selfish and ultimately more destructive instincts took over.

Yeah! You just hit the nail on the head.

I disagree with his argument and think the Cultural Revolution had more to do with Mao's wish to regain control of the Party and country than May 4th and cultural reform, but the lecture got me thinking about how much intellectuals and ideas matter.

I agree with what you said, “the Cultural Revolution had more to do with Mao’s wish to regain control of the Party”. In my opinion, Mao not only wanted to regain the control of the Party and country but also intended to cope with and drive out both some party members and intellectuals he disliked.

Even though few people read Aristotle, Adam Smith, Confucius, or Mencius, their ideas do get filtered down to the public, get incorporated as a part of the social norm, and influence people's behaviors.

I hope that the heroine’s words in “True Love for Lifetime” can be some explanation to your words, at least to some extent.

Cheers!

[gato]

I agree with you here. However, I would like you to read the word, “尽信书则不如无书。It would be worse than without books if you took them for granted totally. ” said by Mencius.

Yes, books are written by people and so shouldn't be trusted any more or less than people. It's better to think of yourself as being in conversation with the author, offering your own questions and doubts, and see if the author has any answer.

In some plot, when they were in the Cultural Revolution, the husband was defined as “an enemy in the masses 人民内部敌人 ”, because his was an intellectual from a landlord family. Some cadres asked his wife to “draw a dividing line 划清界线” with him. This country woman (乡下女人) without knowing some characters （不识几个字）, told those cadres, “I don’t know who is the enemy in the masses, but I know he is a good man. 我不知道谁是人民内部敌人，但我知道他是好人。” As a result, the couple both had to hang a board marked “an enemy in the masses ”on their necks while cleaning the ways in their country each day for 2 years.

Small victory for common sense over ideology, maybe. Many people had to give in. This 乡下女人 sounds pretty smart, though, whatever her level of formal education.

Could you please explain the word “Which comes first, chicken or eggs先有鸡,还是先有蛋?”

You sound like a Zen master. The answer neither. I'd ask you "why did the chicken cross the street?"

[wushijiao]

gato, student young- interesting discussion.

I do agree that societies need basic moral foundations. The common assumption among Westerners in China is that people used to believe in Communism and now they are searching for another ideology to fill the void. I disagree. It sems to me that communist theory never was understood by the masses. Some people have pointed out that Mao's genius was his ability to change and distort ideology to the point where in could make sense to Chinese farmers, which most urban intellectuals were ignorant of. I can say from my personal experiences that almost no one that I have met in China has read any Communist theory. (By the way, from ages 16-20 I was obsessed with Commnism and all things Soviet). In fact, it is quite ludicrous to suggest that the average Hebei peasent ever had a firm grasp of 19th century German industruial economics, and the dialectics emerging from that.

The point is, it seems like any theory that wants to win broad acceptance by the masses has to adapt itself to the already strong sense of morals and ethics. What those morals are based on, I can't say. Probably a hodgepodge of Confucianism, Taoism, buddhism, Maoism...etc. In any case, I think one of the big questions is: what are Chinese folk ethics? and how fast will they be changed by modern market forces (TV, finding work in new cities/leaving the "village/danwei system"?

For example, I once stayed with my wife for a day in her aunt's appartment in Zhengzhou. All the people in the appartment complex worked in the same dreary steel factory right next door. In other words, whether you were at work or going home, thousands of neighbors had their gossipy eyes on you. Any family problem (divorice or whatever) would be disastrous if it went public. Under this type of suffocating environment, I think the social pressure for families to stay together, whether beneficial or not, would be overwhelming. Shanghai, on the other hand, has the highest divorice rate on the mainland. I think it's not a coincidence that it is also the most economically free- you can find a good job in many different places and you can live wherever in anonymity. So, as China's GDP surges, and as China becomes more urban, how will that influence traditional culture? I don't know.

I am rambling...

[gato]

The point is, it seems like any theory that wants to win broad acceptance by the masses has to adapt itself to the already strong sense of morals and ethics. What those morals are based on, I can't say. Probably a hodgepodge of Confucianism, Taoism, buddhism, Maoism...etc. In any case, I think one of the big questions is: what are Chinese folk ethics? and how fast will they be changed by modern market forces (TV, finding work in new cities/leaving the "village/danwei system"?

One of the central points of the revolution was to say that the traditional ethics were corrupt and obsolete. There was an effort to wipe them out. Some remnants of these traditions (and superstitions), of course, remain, but because it wasn't encouraged to study/preserve them, people probably don't understand them that well. You haven't rid people of Confucianism. Rather it's been submerged into unconscious. People become more act without understanding their own motivations.

Wushijiao, it's great that you're an expert in communism. As a product of the Europe, I think it presupposes a kind of Judeo-Christian system of ethics. I'd like to understand how communism was transformed as it got transplanted into Chinese culture. I don't think China would have necessarily less problems if it had been a Christian country. Communist Russia had its share of troubles, to say the least, after all. Still, I think it'd be interesting and relevant to understand the interaction of communism with Chinese traditional cultures because after all, that's what you have in today's China, a hybrid culture of sort.

It's like when Buddhism arrived in China, it both transformed Chinese culture of the day and was itself transformed by Chinese culture, adopting elements of Confucianism and Taoism, as well as other indigenous religious beliefs. For example, Guanyin bodhisattva:

http://ignca.nic.in/ks_41028.htm#Shuiyue

Avalokitesvara who is a male Bodhisattva in India was transformed into a goddess in a Chinese male oriented society. A preliminary statement can be made here, that sinicization of Buddhism led to the creation of the Goddess of mercy with Chinese characteristics from a male deity with Indian characteristics. What brought about this change in the gender of this Bodhisattva and why? This transformation of a male deity from India into a female Goddess of mercy in a strongly patriarchal Chinese society both at the terrestrial and celestial levels has surprised many. Celestial because for any woman to gain entrance into the Paradise of Amitabha, she should shed her female form and assume a male form. For a female divinity to have grown in the terrestrial level in a male dominated society, and to have given rise to a cult is equally strange. It is not that there were no goddesses prior to the introduction of Buddhism in China. Only they were not as important.

The transformation does not appear to have come about suddenly. The male Bodhisattva was gradually given an ambiguous form so that people saw what they desired to see. If we examine the iconographic representations of the goddess in China and elsewhere, the paintings and statues of this Bodhisattva initially did not reveal this change. The female anatomy was conspicuously absent, but from a graceful body structure one could feel the feminine element. At the same time the male characteristics of moustache and beard were also visible in the form of tendril like lines. Even these vanished in the sculptures of the Dazu caves where they appear to be completely female.

[杰声]

Could you please explain the word “Which comes first, chicken or eggs先有鸡,还是先有蛋?”

Unless you made the question more specific: "Which came first the chicken or the chicken's egg?"", then the answer would be the egg. As eggs were laid by others creatures looong before chickens were around ^_^

Scientifically, out of the chiken adn the chiken's egg the chicken is more likely to have appeared first as evolution (genetic mutation) occurs during concievement so when the first chicken hatched out an egg what laid that egg wouldn't have exactly been a chicken

Lol kinda takes all the fun out of philosophising doesn't it

[studentyoung]

Yes, books are written by people and so shouldn't be trusted any more or less than people. It's better to think of yourself as being in conversation with the author, offering your own questions and doubts, and see if the author has any answer.

Good! You are really a learned scholar!

Small victory for common sense over ideology, maybe. Many people had to give in. This 乡下女人 sounds pretty smart, though, whatever her level of formal education.

Thanks so much for your kind words. In my opinion, she was not only smart, but also quite firm. She trusted her husband firmly through something happened in their life.

In some plot, when they hadn’t got marry, a flood occurred in their country one year. He saved a lot of people in the country but didn’t come to save her. Others asked him why, since they knew he loved her very much He said quietly, “If she died, I didn’t want to be alive. 她要是死了，我也不想活了。” In that year, they got married, when he was 22 and she was 20. In another plot, when China was in the so-called three-hard-year 三年困难时期, i.e. China went through three-year successive natural disaster and bad harvests as a result, she found a handful of flour, which was quite rare in those days, and made a bowl of noodle for him. He valued the noodle very much and wanted to leave it for his wife, that both of them didn’t touch the bowl. Three days later, the noodle went bad.

It sounds their love is very truthhearted. (这让我想起一句歌词：“真情谁与共，生死可相从？”) So you can understand more why she said in that way, right?

You sound like a Zen master. The answer neither.

Thank you so much for your kind words. In fact, I am too common to say that I am a Zen master. （惭愧，惭愧！ 实在是愧不敢当啊！）Yes, the answer is neither, because in universal, everything must go through metempsychosis (轮回). The question seems to guide you to the consequence, but the truth is the metempsychosis, i.e. from birth to death, which has nothing to do with the consequence. So I think sometimes we need jump out of the limits of words to find the truth. Please check the stuff below:

一灯从怀中取出一个鸡蛋，交给了小龙女，说道：“世上鸡先有呢，还是蛋先有？”这是个千古无人能解的难题。杨过心想：“当此生死关头，怎地问起这些不打紧的事来？” 小龙女接过蛋来，原来是个瓷蛋，但颜色形状无一不像。她微一沉吟，已明其意，道：“蛋破生鸡，鸡大生蛋，既有其生，必有其死。”轻轻击碎蛋壳，滚出一颗丸药，金黄浑圆，便如蛋黄。一灯道：“快服下了。” 小龙女心知此药贵重，于是放入口中嚼碎咽下。

——选自金庸的《神雕侠侣》

I'd ask you "why did the chicken cross the street?"

Please look at the street carefully, and I am sure you can find the answer, Sir!

By the way, I wonder if you could use your historical and philosophical knowledge to illustrate the word below:

《韩非子·说林上》：“知渊中之鱼者不祥。 It is ominous for someone who can see fish in an abyss.”

Cheers!

[gato]

《韩非子·说林上》：“知渊中之鱼者不祥。 It is ominous for someone who can see fish in an abyss.”

George W. Bush told us there was a fish there, but we couldn't find it, and now we are stuck. It's a pity that Americans didn't read their HanFeiZi.

You're funny, young studentyoung.

How about this:

《论语，八佾第三》:子曰、人而不仁、如禮何、人而不仁、如樂何。

Without benevolence, what good is ceremony? Without benevolence, what good is musical ritual?

[studentyoung]

Wushijiao

For example, I once stayed with my wife for a day in her aunt's appartment in Zhengzhou. All the people in the appartment complex worked in the same dreary steel factory right next door. In other words, whether you were at work or going home, thousands of neighbors had their gossipy eyes on you. Any family problem (divorice or whatever) would be disastrous if it went public. Under this type of suffocating environment, I think the social pressure for families to stay together, whether beneficial or not, would be overwhelming.

Believe me, it also happens in Guangzhou this modern city, especially in some small lanes, no matter they are in downtown or in outskirt. Some people just don’t mind how you (or the party当事人) feel and take up everything that may “interest” them to satisfy their humble curiosity. No wonder one Chinese scholar once said that Chinese people like to handle the public affairs privately, while handle the private ones publicly 中国人喜欢公事私办，私事公办.

I am rambling...

Take it easy, me too!

[studentyoung]

It's like when Buddhism arrived in China, it both transformed Chinese culture of the day and was itself transformed by Chinese culture, adopting elements of Confucianism and Taoism, as well as other indigenous religious beliefs.

Yes, that’s the case. That's why Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism can co-exist in China harmoniously throughtout Chinese history, because they have been interacting each other with mutual understanding for more than two thousand years, and some of their elements have inter-penetrated. This is quite differnt from the conditions among Christianism, Judaism and Islam in the Middle East.

George W. Bush told us there was a fish there, but we couldn't find it, and now we are stuck. It's a pity that Americans didn't read their HanFeiZi.

If Americans could find that fish, there would be no room for George W. Bush on the political stage any more.

How about this:

《论语，八佾第三》:子曰、人而不仁、如禮何、人而不仁、如樂何。

Without benevolence, what good is ceremony? Without benevolence, what good is musical ritual?

Could you please leave these words to George W. Bush?

You're funny, young studentyoung.

Not me, not me, but you, sir!

Thanks!(多谢先生赐教！—— 学生拱手揖拜！)

[gato]

Not at all, I'm still learning, too. You'll have to help with some phrases as I'm working on translating Wang Xiaobo.

[studentyoung]

Not at all, I'm still learning, too.

Like this:《诗经·卫风·淇奥》：有匪君子，如切如磋，如琢如磨。There is such a graceful gentleman who discusses with others and polishes in his mind in study.

You'll have to help with some phrases as I'm working on translating Wang Xiaobo.

I hope I can help you, Sir! Could you please tell me where you list those phases confusing you?

Cheers!

[wiz_oz]

Check out this link

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/The-truth-about-divorce-kids-turn-out-fine/2005/03/25/1111692630687.html

[Natureboy]

right on, Tsunku, for your post of March 9, 2005. I am seeking a Chinese wife the e-way right now, until I actually get to China in August. Many ladies I observe are divorced and obviously lonely and hoping that 'true love' may find them. I was warned by Chinese in Canada (who mean well)that I will be a target, I am a sucker if I fall for them, they are 'damaged goods' so of course they want a foreigner who will sympathize and offer marriage etc.etc. Well, I don't see women that way. Everyone is entitled to be loved for who and what they are, accepted, along with their children. I have some serious prospects now and I am mature enough to recognize their fine character and honest intentions and reply accordingly. Love grows where the soil of sincerity and kindness may nurture it. So count me among those who willingly and openly love any woman who is open in her heart and straight with me, especially a Chinese woman, divorced or not.