Studying Chinese in China without HSK Level 4?

[T_byeol]

Hey everyone,I'm new here

I apologise if this topic has been discussed before but since everyone's different,I'd like to tailor this new post to suit my needs!

I'm a European student,currenty doing my second year of A levels in the UK and I have already applied to British universities to study Chinese and Linguistics ( I had to).

The problem is that I don't really want to study in England for my bachelor's degree due to various factors (one being how bloody expensive it is) so I want to go to China.I mean,learning Chinese while attending a Chinese university will grant me with greater fluency than your average British uni student studying Chinese (I say average because it depends on how much effort someone puts in!).Moreover,I am not the kind that's going to stack 10 different Chinese books on the shelf and read them in a month,I like to take my time.Even though I love learning new languages,Chinese to me is still very alien both conceptually and preceptually so being in China would help me get over that quickly.

However,I do not have HSK level 4 as you have already read in the title and even though I am aware of the Bilingual undergraduate programme in BLCU,which I also attended for a month in the summer,I am not very fond of Beijing (like at all).

It's okay if I need to attend a foundation class for the first year or 6 months but can someone guide me here?I have looked at websites of Chinese universities but they're too confusing.

Which universities still accept applications and which are fine with me attending a foundation class prior to joining them as an undergraduate student?And as I said before,I'd appreciate it if you could list universities outside Beijing as I want to keep my lungs intact for as long as possible.Thank you.

[edelweis]

perhaps you can have a look at http://www.cucas.edu.cn and look for universities which offer both chinese language classes and the undergraduate major that you are looking for.

(CUCAS can also help you get registered for a fee, but just looking at the information on the website is free and a rather convenient way to find programs that accept foreigners.)

[OneEye]

If you're interested in Taiwan, the Ministry of Education here offers a scholarship that covers your entire tuition and supplies you with a stipend for living expenses. They also offer the option to do a year of language training first (maybe even two, I don't remember).

You need to be aware though that the "Chinese Language and Culture for Foreigners" type of programs, at least here in Taiwan, tend to be a joke, and even after 4 years you're still reading these outdated textbooks aimed at foreigners (complete with stories explaining 成語!), have studied very little to no authentic Chinese or 文言文, etc. Still speaking "foreigner Chinese," even after years of living here, because the only people they speak with are other foreigners, and teachers who have gotten so accustomed to bad Chinese they either don't notice anymore or have given up.

In my opinion, it's much better to do a real degree, conducted in Chinese, in whatever field you want to work in. But you might need more than a year of language training to be able to handle that, depending on which degree, what your Chinese is like when you get here, and how hard you work. I've had friends spend a year at the MTC and go on to the "for foreigners" BA programs, and one friend who spent at year at the MTC and then went to 台大 to do a BA in Chinese literature (in a department full of native speakers). If you had to guess, who do you think has better Chinese now, by a long shot, just 1.5 semesters into the program? And who do you think will still have a painful accent and awkward usage at graduation in 3 years?

[anonymoose]

I agree with OneEye. There are many people here who've done degrees in Chinese, either in their own country or abroad, and when they've graduated, they don't really know what to do with it. The fact of the matter is that, most likely, even after a degree in Chinese, your language will unlikely be up to high enough a standard to be able to get a good job on the back of that alone. On the other hand, if you do a degree in something else in Chinese, you will not only likely have better Chinese (although I don't think that is a certainty - it depends on how much effort you put into learning and improving), but also some other skill which will stand you in much better stead for a career. However, this is assuming you don't know exactly what you want to do yet. On the other hand, if you already know you want to be a Chinese teacher or translator, for example, then a degree in Chinese or other relevant field might be more beneficial.

[OneEye]

I'm not saying don't do a degree in Chinese, I'm saying don't do a degree aimed specifically at foreigners, where you'll be coddled and held to a low standard. Get your Chinese to a level that you can handle doing a normal degree at a Chinese or Taiwanese university, whether it's a degree in Chinese or whatever. I'd imagine that after a year in a language program and four years doing a BA or BS, your Chinese ought to be good enough to use it professionally in whatever your chosen field is, provided you're not content to get by with the bare minimum of Chinese ability and focus on improving your Chinese the whole time.

It's amazing the difference that exists between "language center Chinese" (which in my experience is the same as that taught in "Chinese for foreigners" BA programs) and real Chinese. I turned in a paper during my last term at the MTC, and my teacher made 1 whole mark on the entire thing, and gave me an A+. I gave the same paper to my writing tutor, told her I was applying to do an MA in Chinese at the top two Chinese departments here in Taiwan, and that I wanted to be held to the same standard as a native speaker. It came back blood red. My teacher at the MTC thought he was being encouraging, but I've learned much more in much less time from my writing tutor.

[T_byeol]

I really appreciate the replies guys and OneEye as well as anonymoose,thanks for the warning.I too felt that having a Chinese language and literature degree as well as a ''Chinese for foreigners'' degree was sketchy.I am not going for any of that hence why I want to have a language class for a year.I pick up languages easily so I should be able to get my Chinese up to the HSK 3/4 standard (according to the university) in order to join an undergraduate class.I am only looking to join the programmes the native speakers and international students with good Chinese are in.I have looked at Zhejiang,Beijing Normal,Wuhan,Sun Yat Sen and Shanghai's Jiaotong with BLCU also being an option.The bit I'm worried about is the admission's office misunderstanding that I want to join the ''real'' Chinese degree,as OneEye has emphasised, so as to avoid any misunderstandings later.I would definitely not want to be held at a low standard after travelling all the way to China to learn ''good Chinese''.

Also,anonymouse,I hadn't even thought of that because learning Chinese at degree level would be tough enough but it could be an option.I'd like to do a major/minor degree though and I'll have to ask which of the universities I'm interested in offer such an option.

Pft,I regret not have a friend in China who can help me with all this.

[anonymoose]

I don't think the admissions office will misunderstand. There are international students on most regular courses, and depending on which university you apply to, the procedure for applying to a regular course and a language course for foreigners is probably different.

[Guest realmayo]

I think it's very brave opting to do a Chinese literature course alongside Chinese students after only one year of studying Chinese. Surely you'd have to be exceptionally gifted for this to work?

[T_byeol]

@Anonymoose just a bit of experience with BLCU Admissions lol

@RealMayo Exceptionally gifted?I would surely not be highly proficient after a year but how much time do you think is needed to achieve working proficiency in a language?If someone who doesn't speak any Chinese at all can pass the HSK Level 3 or 4 after 6 months of classes (People I knew from BLCU),I think I'll be fine.Chinese might be quite a challenge but as long as you're aware of the basic structure,actively engage with the locals,study and learn how to memorise your characters,the Great Wall of the Chinese language falls.That's how I see it anyway.It's not an inherently different language,just different from what most are used to.

Moreover it doesn't have to be a Chinese literature degree. ''Teaching Chinese as a foreign language'' degrees are also very beneficial and useful especially since I want to either work at an embassy or as a teacher at a Chinese school.

If I did a degree in the UK,I'd still have to perfect and polish my Chinese (especially the tones) by staying in China anyway so I think that would be quite counter-productive.

[OneEye]

If you're referring to my friend, she had already studied some Chinese before she came to Taiwan (like our OP, I'm assuming). I think she tested into PAVC Book 4, which is about the 4th semester for most people in the intensive course at the MTC, and reached "Newspaper Reading I" level or thereabouts before she started the BA program. She said the degree program is really hard, but I've noticed a huge difference in her Chinese ability.

I don't think it's so much about being gifted as it is about being willing to work hard and jump into the deep end before you feel especially ready. I've been studying here in Taiwan for about 18 months now, so I came here about the same time she did, and with a much lower level of Chinese than she had (a good two semesters behind). But if everything goes well with the admissions process, I'll be starting an MA in Chinese Literature this fall, with a focus on pre-Qin philology and excavated texts. It certainly won't be easy by any stretch of the imagination, but it's what I want to do and I'm sure my Chinese will improve a lot, out of necessity. It isn't quite the same as starting a degree after a year in country, but considering my level was 6 months of intensive study behind hers and I'll be doing graduate-level work, it isn't far off IMO. So this sort of thing isn't unheard of.

But I hope the OP is willing to work himself into the ground, because that's what it takes. I didn't get to this point by doing the bare minimum, I got here by doing 2 or 3 times the amount of work everyone else in my class was doing. After a little over a year here I was auditing graduate courses in the Chinese department, reading college-level textbooks in my field, and able to pick up work translating academic papers into English, while many of my former classmates still have a hard time making small talk or reading a comic book.

I will say though, HSK4 won't cut it if you want to do Chinese literature. HSK6 might do, if you also took the time to read some introductory textbooks in the field alongside your studying. Like I said, be prepared to work.

[Guest realmayo]

Ah I see, yes that definitely makes sense. I was thinking you meant basically a beginner, doing one year of Chinese, and then going into a 'Chinese' Chinese literature programme. As you say, that would be HSK6 after one year which is unlikely.

At the stage when someone, say, is basically done with textbooks but can't just pick up a newspaper and read (most of) it -- that's where opportunities to intensive exposure can be tricky to come by. So yes, years 3 or 4 of a regular Chinese for foreigners BA in China will certainly not be intensive enough; a job or a BA taught to Chinese students would hopefully both deliver.

[gato]

The OP said "Moreover,I am not the kind that's going to stack 10 different Chinese books on the shelf and read them in a month,I like to take my time."

That seems to be inconsistent with what OneEye said would be required to make it work.

[OneEye]

I would surely not be highly proficient after a year but how much time do you think is needed to achieve working proficiency in a language?

"Working proficiency" is fairly vague, but I'm afraid you're seriously underestimating the level of Chinese you'll need to be able to function in a college course with native speakers. For one thing, formal writing in Chinese, the kind you'll have to do for term papers, is not easy. You can't use 口語 to write term papers. For another, the amount of academic vocabulary you'll need just to understand your teachers is far beyond what you'll have at HSK4 level. Not to mention you'll need a decent level in 文言文 when you start just to be able to function in their first-year 文言文 courses. I've used the textbooks for those courses, and they're tough. They also tend to be in traditional characters even in China, so there's something else you need to be ready for.

Just because they say you need HSK4 doesn't mean you'll actually be successful if that's all the Chinese you've got when you start.

[xuefang]

OP mentioned the Sun Yat-Sen University and even though he seems not to be interested in these "Chinese language for foreigners" undergrad degrees, here is a bit of information. If you can get your Chinese up to HSK5, then you can finish "Chinese language for foreigners" bachelor degree in two years here at Sun Yat-Sen University. You can choose Business Chinese or Teaching Chinese as a Second Language major, I'm doing the latter and graduating this year.

So if you are planning or willing to use two years to get your Chinese ready for all-Chinese degree, then this is a good option too.

[T_byeol]

Can you all not be so pessimistic?I've posted this here because I need information,not because I'm definitely going to China and I know everything.

OneEye I am not underestimating it.It's Chinese we're talking about and native level at that.I just don't think it's as impossible as most of the people who have replied to me make it seem.Also what I mean by working proficiency would be the equivalent of an 8 on the IELTS scale by my standards.

Xuefang,that sounds nice .How is Sun Yat-Sen as a university and how about the city?Better to hear it from someone who's actually there.I'm just scared since people have told me that the Chinese for foreigners option is of a low standard and I don't want that if I'm going to withdraw my application to study in the UK to go to China .How good do you think your Chinese is now after 4 years of study??

Gato,is that not why I'm going to do 5 years in uni?!If I was the kind to work my butt off I'd do an intensive course.

[roddy]

If you find the existing topic on Sun Yat-sen, xuefang and others have written extensively about it. Also you might want to look at posts by joshuawbb, who has done something similar.

I am also pessimistic. I don't think it's a good idea to step outside the UK education system before completing an undergrad degree. At the very least defer entry for a year, do a year in China, then decide.

[OneEye]

It's Chinese we're talking about and native level at that.

Nope, not native level. If you think you'll be operating at native level after a year, or even 5, think again. Maybe give it 10 years of hard work in-country, and you might be near-native.

I'm not being pessimistic. I don't think anyone is (except roddy, apparently). I'm more optimistic than most about this kind of thing, I'm just saying it's not going to be as easy as you seem to think it will be. It will likely be a lot more difficult than you think. I encourage you to do it, I just think you should know as much up front what you're getting yourself into as possible. You might think you know, but I'm telling you, you don't.

[T_byeol]

I know,I meant about joining a class with natives who speak it at a native level.I know it would take a lot of years to become ''fluent'' in Chinese.I have reached native fluency in English which is in no way similar to my native tongue so I want to try this thing out.The only thing that's troubling me is finding a suitable degree programme abroad.

Anyway,thanks for all the replies guys.They've been helpful.

[Zeppa]

I think the special problem with Chinese is the interaction of spoken and written Chinese. With an alphabetical language, you can speak away and at the same time you will be improving your reading and writing as long as you know the spelling rules (even though English is not quite straightforward). With Chinese, you are constantly wondering 'Which of these identical-sounding syllables relates to which character?' If you concentrate on the characters, you are not improving your speech much. In my experience I am constantly revising my Chinese learning techniques. I do enjoy it, but it takes longer than other languages despite its lack of inflections.

[xuefang]

Xuefang,that sounds nice .How is Sun Yat-Sen as a university and how about the city?Better to hear it from someone who's actually there.I'm just scared since people have told me that the Chinese for foreigners option is of a low standard and I don't want that if I'm going to withdraw my application to study in the UK to go to China .How good do you think your Chinese is now after 4 years of study??

OP, Here is the link to the topic about Sun Yat-Sen University: http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/35498-sun-yat-sen-university/

After 1,5 years Chinese studies in Finland (class once a week), 1,5 years as a non degree student in China and 1,5 years of undergrad student I'm now at a level that I should be able to pass HSK6 this year (passed HSK5 Dec 2011). I'm not that hard working and would have gotten much better results by working harder, but this is the level I got to after 4,5 years of studies.

I know the degree I'm doing isn't probably the best way to go career wise, but I wanted to live in China and study Chinese so it was the best option for me. If I would want to study with natives after completing undergrad, it would be still super hard for me. I think it would be hard to keep up with all the reading that is required in many majors.