Helpful resources for understanding words in combination?

[Balthazar]

The topic title is not very clear, but I'll try to explain the problem I am having.

I'm a beginner, and so my vocabulary is very limited. However, I do know enough to be interested in checking out some very simple texts for reading practice (and the way I see it, it's a good way to find simple words/characters I am not familiar with, so I can add them to Anki). I've gotten a hold of some books obviously intended for very young audiences, with both characters and pinyin in the text.

While I know a lot of the words being used, I find myself struggling to clearly make out what some of the sentences mean. That is, I get the general idea they communicate, but sometimes I don't quite "get" why the are formed in the way they are. An example below:

I'm familiar with the words being used here, but only in isolation.

The first line would be "small rabbit move" so I guess it's something like "small rabbit on the move" (as the colorful image would also suggest).

On the second line, however, I'm having problems.Home busy again/also/and yet busy? Hmm. I guess it just means something along the lines of the rabbit being very busy with moving.. But it's a bit frustrating to not get why the words are used like this, when the material itself is so basic.

This is where I would like to know how to proceed. Trying google translate on the second line gives me "Home busy and busy". Not very precise. Are there better online resources for meaning of sentences?

(The third+fourth lines are okay)

This is some basic stuff, I know, but I'd really appreciate some pointers on where to turn when I encounter "problems" such as this. Perhaps it is just a matter of experience, i.e. I need to be patient and keep working on grammar, vocabulary and not spend too much time worrying about stuff like this.

[johnk]

I am probably not the best qualified person to help, but here goes.

It is all one sentence, you shouldn't read it one line at a time.

小兔搬家忙又忙，山下搬到山顶上

搬家 means 'to move house'.

I would translate this as:

The little rabbit is moving house, busily, busily, from the mountain base moving to the mountain top.

It is not a word for word translation but that is the general meaning.

For what it is worth, I found childern's books difficult. I think stuff like the Chinese Breeze series are much more suited to foreign adult learners.

[Guest realmayo]

Nursery rhymes are not usually great materials for an adult learning a second language.

[OneEye]

Yeah, I've never really understood the whole "using children's books" thing. I just couldn't stand reading the stuff, my brain rejects it. If the goal is to speak like a toddler, I guess it's fine, if you can stand the material. I've personally always thought it better to aim at the target.

[eion_padraig]

@Balthazar, I would second the advice to check out the Chinese Breeze series as johnk mentioned.

[Balthazar]

Hmm. Didn't really think about how silly the language used in these sort of books often are. You're completely right, though.I definitely don't want to sound like a toddler. (As to "why" people think it's a good idea, I guess it comes down to their simplicity. And then people (as I have) overlook how their "cutesy" language is may make it counterproductive to read them.)

I did pick up some other books which are meant for (primary) school children, they may be more suitable? In any case I'll check out this "Chinese Breeze" series.

Thanks to all..

[Guest realmayo]

The thing is, those books are designed for (little) people who have very good listening skills, decent speaking, but aren't that good at reading. And they might have trouble confusing standard Chinese with their local dialect. It that's you, the books might be okay. If not, then I wouldn't use them as part of a structured learning process but instead as something you can dip into when you already know most of what's in them and are looking to fill some gaps, or want a brief break from your normal textbook.

[roddy]

I can't see any problem with using these for some basic exposure, just bear in mind that they are what they are - kids books.

As for resources for understanding sentences...well, when I were a lad, we had these things called dictionaries. So you'd read that sentence, and it wouldn't make sense, so you'd start looking stuff up. And you'd start with 搬, in case there was some other meaning you didn't get, but you wouldn't see anything. Then you'd look at 家, and you'd notice that it can be used in job titles, like 科学家. So you'd think maybe it means a removals man, so you think the rabbit has a job working for a removals firm. Then you think that doesn't sound quite right, so you go back to 搬 to see if you can find it, and it's there, but actually it means to move house. And then you think you'd better look up 家忙, just in case that's a word and there's something else going on that you haven't worked out. Oh, happy days. Did I mention radical lookups, by the way?

Nowadays you could plug it into something like this, which will mostly do a good job of picking out the word boundaries for you. 'course, you might need to look 'leveret' up.

[liuzhou]

I'd also stay well clear of Google Translate.

[Kenny同志]

If you understood the meaning of every single character, for most of the time, you'd be able to figure out the meaning of those multiple-character words. Of course, sometimes you'll need a dictionary to test your guesses and sometimes your guesses could be wrong, but understanding each character will help you better understand 詞s and enable you to use both single characters and 詞s more at ease.

Edit: And you'll have to have a fairly good understanding of how Chinese 詞s are made.

[li3wei1]

I was testing myself on randomly selected words, and started noticing that there were quite a few where I knew both characters, but I didn't know the meaning of the word they made. I started counting, and out of 150 words, this was the case with 41 of them. I knew 43, plus another 14 if you don't mind some tone mistakes, and for 49 I didn't know, period. Another three, I knew but mispronounced at least one syllable. So, of the words where I knew both characters, I knew (or guessed) the meaning of the words in just over half.

[Kenny同志]

So, of the words where I knew both characters, I knew (or guessed) the meaning of the words in just over half.

Could you provide a few examples? I think, as I added above, it's of great importance that you have a fairly good understanding of how Chinese 詞s are made.

[li3wei1]

出线

This may appear obvious, and I may have gotten it in context, but in a list of words, put these characters together and what pops into my mind is a spider extruding silk, or a machine churning out cable, or the 'out' cable of a video player.

考量

to my mind, these two characters together should mean either 'to measure the quantity of' or 'the quantity that has been measured'.

[Kenny同志]

Without looking up 出線 in a dictionary beforehand, I can tell it means cross a line, or (a machine) churn out cable. I had no idea what it means as a sports term until I googled it. Though such being the case, I find it easy to understand the derived meaning as the parallel between it and crossing a line is quite obvious.

The meaning of 考量 is also derived from the meanings of 考 and 量.

Anyway, understanding each single character of a Chinese word can help you understand the word better, and remember its meaning with less mental effort.

[li3wei1]

yes, some of them, like 出線, are obvious once you know them. Others, less so. And I don't expect everyone to get results similar to mine. Someone who studies a lot of individual characters but neglects words or general reading may have a higher percentage of "know the characters, but don't know the word", whereas someone who learns purely through exposure to native material (such as a native speaker) would have a low percentage. I think I'm probably mid-range.

it's of great importance that you have a fairly good understanding of how Chinese 詞s are made.

are there rules for this spelled out somewhere, similar to the 六书?

[Kenny同志]

are there rules for this spelled out somewhere, similar to the 六书?

No idea, but I think you'll get the hang of it over some time if you try to look at words from a single character perspective.

[roddy]

It's easy to say it's easy to figure the words out when you know what the words mean already. It's a hell of lot harder when you don't, and harder again when you don't have any context (anyone who thinks they can do this, how much is context contributing?). By the time you've figured out Kenny's word formation rules (a list of which would be welcome, btw) you've probably learned all the vocab anyway.

Sure, you can get some way in the right direction, but the chances of confusion are way too high.

Thankfully, you rarely have to actually do this, as there will generally be plenty of context.

Just to pull some words from Kenny's signature

政府 - how would you know that doesn't mean 'goverment building'

推行- how would you know that didn't mean to push as you walk, as in pushing a shopping cart

使用 - I'll give you that one

正體字 - how would you know that doesn't mean neatly-written characters

說帖 - how would you know that doesn't mean cards with notes for making a speech

All, of course, bearing in mind, that we are giving advice to a new learner.

Thankfully, as I pointed out earlier, we have dictionaries with all the words in to use after you've guessed.

[Kenny同志]

Well, Roddy, you have a point there.

[roddy]

I'm glad. I'm genuinely surprised by how rarely you see people on here say "you need a good, level-appropriate, dictionary."

[PBolchover]

It's not an exact analogy, but I regard individual characters in a 2-character word as being like the Latin, Greek and German roots in English words. Some of the time, they help you understand the meaning, but often, it is only if you already understand what the word already means.