Occupy Central 佔領中環

[roddy]

I think when I said irrelevant, I meant that even if the people of Hong Kong had happily accepted a lack of democracy and rule by bosses old and new, that doesn't take away their right to change their minds. My instinctive response to 'why didn't you ask the British for democracy' is 'who cares, we're asking you for it now'. But the history does add weight, now I think about it. 

[Lu]

My instinctive response to 'why didn't you ask the British for democracy' is 'who cares, we're asking you for it now'.

I quite agree. But an argument I've also seen quite a bit in the past weeks was 'we're offering you more democracy than the UK ever did', which was not a great argument, but at least it was true. Except now it turns out, it's not even true: Beijing actively kept more democracy from HK.

[roddy]

If anyone's interested, you can read the memo from a meeting between Thatcher and Deng Xiaoping here Found via this, which points you to more interesting bits. 

[skylee]

Limbo…

PS - The record of meeting is interesting. Thanks for posting it.

[Morten]

Talks between students and government next week

 

According to this  from BBC

[skylee]

外國勢力 Foreign power

http://m.appledaily.com.tw/realtimenews/article/new/20141022/492481/%E5%A4%96%E5%9C%8B%E5%8B%A2%E5%8A%9B%E6%8C%BA%E3%80%8C%E4%BD%94%E4%B8%AD%E3%80%8D%EF%BC%9F%E3%80%80KennyG%E7%8F%BE%E8%BA%AB%E6%8C%BA%E7%A4%BA%E5%A8%81%E8%80%85

（更新：新增中國外交部批Kenny G）

美國薩克斯風王子Kenny G今上傳一張照片表示，自己正在香港示威現場，並表示對「佔中」運動的支持。不過Kenny G顯然被視為干涉中國內政的「外國勢力」，中國外交部還特地在記者會上表示，希望外國人不要以任何形式支持佔中行為。

Kenny G現身「佔中」的消息一開始是從香港網友臉書透漏。網友「雲海」今天在臉書上留言稱：「問了朋友的朋友Mark BOng，可以用此相，因為他在雨傘運動中遇上Kenny G!真是太正了！」消息傳出後，立刻有網友開玩笑表示，Kenny G就是香港特首梁振英不斷說嘴的外國勢力。

而當有網友質疑照片上是否為Kenny G本人時，他自己也透過推特上傳人在香港「佔中」現場的照片。Kenny G留言說：「正在香港的示威現場，希望所有人和平且取得正面成果。」

對此，中國外交部發言人華春瑩今天在記者會上表示，Kenny G的作品在中國廣受歡迎，但香港佔中是違法行為，希望外國政府及個人言行審慎，不要以任何形式支持佔中及其他違法行為。

[roddy]

Apparently he's been offered CNY10m to perform

...

 

cultural background

[Guest realmayo]

And lieutenant-colonel Cantlie is sure to always tell the truth 

 

Why would he lie about something like that?

 

 

Also, nastily, appears his grandson is a current Isis hostage.

[Lu]

Roddy, that was my first thought as well when I saw that news article :-D

[skylee]

HK Government officials and the student leaders held a talk last evening. I have heard people praise the students. I was not in HK and did not watch the talk on TV. But when I had a chance I reminded one of my friends praising the students that the officials were not free to do or say whatever they wanted. If we were in their shoes we might do just as badly (屁股控制腦袋). And I have also noticed that the students' demands have become more practicable, yet the government has hardly given them anything. Why wouldn't they? I would say because they can't.

A BBC report - Hong Kong officials hold first talks with students

http://m.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29700156

[imron]

Why would he lie about something like that?

Cantlie = Can't Lie = Always tells the truth.  'Twas but a joke.

[Guest realmayo]

Aha! ... silly me, that explains why the comment seemed a bit off 

[skylee]

A few days ago, a group of 14 climbers got together and hung a 26-meter yellow banner with the words “我要真普選” from the top of the Lion Rock in Kowloon. The images had gone viral even before they completed hanging it. The act was completed at around 11am that day and within 24 hours the banner was removed.

These people had to devote time, effort and money to do this. When different people persist like this (these people are not students. They are good at mountain climbing. And the occupation has been going on for a month now), we should ask why. Are they really being supported, manipulated and fooled by foreign powers? The Mainland authorities say so. They also say that the election of the Chief Executive in Hong Kong is a sovereign matter which must be controlled. The fear! The HK Chief Executive is not merely a mayor. His election and appointment is a matter of national security. Think of that!

The Lion Rock is a symbol of HK. There is an old TV show theme song called 獅子山下. It is widely regarded as one of the most representative songs of HK. The last line of the lyrics reads, “我哋大家用艱辛努力寫下那不朽香江名句。”The songwriter did not specify the 不朽名句. Many people have said that they know it now.

I've found this photo in a blog (http://vicsforum.blogspot.hk/2014/10/blog-post_135.html?m=1). Photo Credit: Lam Yik Fei Getty Images

[Lu]

I happened to talk with the director of a prominent NGO today who told me that he had been to the American consulate in the beginning of October, and seen there that the consul and his staff were very, very careful to show that they had nothing to do with the protests: never show themselves among the protesters, etc. The director of the NGO felt sure that the American government had in fact nothing to do with the protests.

And I agree. I have seen no indication that foreign powers are involved in this, and frankly I find the idea insulting to the protesters and especially the organisers. As if the Hong Kong people don't have the smarts to pull this off themselves, as if they can't independently come to desire 普选. In my opinion the Chinese government is being paranoid and shows it doesn't understand its own people. Yes, Chinese people can in fact want elections; no, not all Chinese people love the Party, or equate loving the country with loving the Party. Sticking their head in the sand like this is rather stupid.

As to the mountain climbers: why would that have anything to do with foreign powers? It's not that hard to believe that some of the people who want free elections are skilled mountain climbers, and it's also not that hard to believe that they want to contribute to the cause in a way only they can. They would already have (most of) the equipment for climbing a mountain, and printing such a banner can't be that hideously expensive. Also taking in consideration that mountain climbing is not exactly a cheap hobby, so the people inclined to pull such a stunt will have some money.

That being said, imo that banner looks hideous against such a beautiful natural mountainscape.

[li3wei1]

Hong Kong probably has the highest percentage of anywhere in the world of people who could be argued are 'foreign' yet think of themselves as HongKongers. Maybe they were born elsewhere (often the mainland) or their parents were, or they were educated elsewhere, or they have a foreign passport, or they are employed by a foreign company, or they are married to a foreigner. The lines are so blurred in Hong Kong. If all of these people stayed away from the demos for fear of being seen as foreign influence, then hardly anyone would be there. I have a friend, who is British but has lived in Hong Kong for over 20 years, who mentioned she was packing a friend's car with food for the protestors. Is that foreign influence?

[gato]

Don't take the foreign power charge seriously. It's made for propaganda purposes, primarily used for the mainlander audience, who are reminded everyday by schools and the media about China being the victim of foreign bullying.

The ironic thing is that the Chinese Communist Party was just a branch of Soviet Communist Party when it was started. Soviet agents attended the founding meetings in 1921. Moscow either appointed or approved all the General Secretaries of the party before 1949, including Mao. Most of the General Secretaries before Mao received training in Moscow. The reason for the Long March from Jiangxi province to Yan'an in Shaanxi was that they were losing badly to the Nationalists and wanted to get close to the Soviet border for easier assistance.

[gato]

The New York Times is also now reporting on the UK democratization plan for HK in the 1950s and Beijing's invasion threat:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/world/asia/china-began-push-against-hong-kong-elections-in-50s.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share

Diplomatic dispatches reveal that Chinese leaders were so opposed to the prospect of a democratic Hong Kong that they threatened to invade.

[skylee]

I have found a picture that shows the lion more clearly (attached).

There are many reports and articles about this banner. One of them was written by 林夕 (I tend to choose 林夕 as he is also well known in China). I paste it here, as I don't think people in China can access apple daily or blogspot. And the last sentence is good.

The title of course is meant to remind people of 逼上梁山.

逼上獅山

那真是一道淒美的風景，懸掛在獅子山巔的巨型標語：「我要真普選」。

美麗在獅子山這圖騰終於得到了新生：從前強調為豐衣足食而努力不懈，現在要用努力艱辛寫下的香江不朽名句，已經比衣食足更上一層樓，甚至倒過來，衣食未必足，卻知道了什麼叫榮辱。牛一樣地苦幹，如果活得像豬一樣，吃飽了就昏睡，又有什麼意義；更何況，現在勤奮如牛，只怕依然活得像蝸牛，往上慢慢有得爬，比較好命的，背着那蝸居如業隨身。

而淒涼在於，如此樸素簡單的五個大字，管你什麼外國勢力，誰與誰勾結，誰給誰煽動，正如吳康民說：顏色革命？言重了，只是爭取本來說好了的，我們只是要爭取真普選，爭取兌現一個給卑鄙地破壞了的莊嚴承諾，不是要鬧什麼革命，竟然給簡單又粗暴地抹黑，又催淚又威嚇，鬧了那麼久才撈得一場對話、一部錄音機的倒帶、一個補充報告。

我們的政府，以撲殺於萌芽階段的效率，滅了這道風景，卻更像一則淒厲的寓言。爭取真普選，反佔領者應該都不好意思反對，市長也說，這是政府以及全民的共同願望，拆得如此性急，除非心虛，大家對真假各有定義，正如民建聯全名也叫民主建港聯盟。於是難免起疑，如果愛港之聲之流組團上山掛的標語是愛國愛港、堅決支持梁振英依法施政、擁護人大決定，這道風景會否一樣短命，陳淨心又會不會出醜，鳩叫拉得。

不畏艱辛掛這標語的幾個非法份子干犯了什麼來着？好像是在郊野公園範圍內非法展示標誌，這是警務處說漁農署說的。沒關係了，反正現在很容易就會犯法，動不動也會破壞法治，然後，不是因為這五個字刺眼，消防處說是標語太大，有危險。風從北方來，特別大，真普選塌下來壓不死人，壓壞了花花草草也是不好的。沒關係了，那隻一樣是larger than life的吹氣黃鴨，惹得許多人圍觀，萬一圍欄給推倒了，也一樣很危險，所以以後任何大型物件都不應懸掛，連年宵都應取消，總之香港從此很危險。

沒關係了，反正香港容得下周融陳淨心、容得下化身環球時報評論員的議員高官巨富、容得下鸚鵡豺狼，容得下讓人嘔心的嘴臉，竟然容不下我要真普選五個字。沒關係了，香港終於擁有全新的，因短暫而變永恆的地標，比中環摩天樓更動人心魄。沒關係了，朝花、夕拾，造夢的，覺醒了，蒙蔽的，矚目了，被逼上獅子山的，消失了，消失的，記住了，記住的，不朽了。

林夕

[Lu]

Don't take the foreign power charge seriously. It's made for propaganda purposes, primarily used for the mainlander audience, who are reminded everyday by schools and the media about China being the victim of foreign bullying.

No, I get the impression that the Chinese government actually really believes this. Which is worse.

[Basil]

Of course the Chinese government believes it... they are a jealous master.