Child in Chinese School - Resource Help, Please

[Theodora]

So you pay 12 months up front if you are on a 12-month lease?

Just to add further fuel to the topic of accommodation in Harbin... Because we got a short lease, which was difficult -- most agents/landlords won't touch anything less than 12 months -- we paid all of it upfront. Most of what we saw on ganji was a year with either 6-months upfront, 6-months halfway through, or 12 months upfront, but there was the odd flat that offered quarterly payment. As an FYI if the topic does move, I understand from our Chinese teacher that in Jilin the situation is also that you pay upfront. It's a regional peculiarity that I really wasn't aware of until we got here, and folk thinking of moving to Heilongjiang, Jilin and Hebei should probably be aware of.

[Theodora]

The reality of China is that most children stop having a social life outside of the classroom once they hit middle school.

Thanks. That had been my impression, but in a kind of "say it ain't say, Joe" sort of way I'd been hoping to find otherwise on these boards. I suspect we may end up deciding that the social sacrifice required to make the Chinese language gains required is not worth it in human terms, especially not with an only child: I think he could hack it for a few months, and continue to find it rewarding.

But two years, which I am beginning to suspect is the timeframe actually required for an able, committed learner with some Chinese language and literacy and the flexible brain of a tween, in the pressure-cooker immersion environment that is an academic elite school to reach reasonable fluency and literacy, is just too long.

And I'm not sure I want him internalising the uncharitable academic competitiveness of Chinese school either. That's not a commentary on the kids, btw, who seem like lovely kids and have made him very welcome: his buddy next to him, for example, helps him with things like copying down the maths problems off the board (skip that one, go to the next one...). It's a commentary on the school culture. But ability is prized over humanity within the culture.

Long hours Mon-Fri plus homework on evenings and part of the weekends is doable. Long hours plus homework Mon-Fri and on part of the weekends AND no social life except in the form of structured classes, which, I would imagine, are not characterised by social smalltalk either? Too much, IMHO, for a period of longer than a few months. Particularly given the elimination of creativity and initiative that you identify.

He came back from school the other day and said, "I did X instead of Y. I thought that would show initiative." I said, "What country do you think you are in again?!" He said, "Oh, yeah!", and we laughed about it, but I think a full, long stint would actually begin to eliminate those qualities.

However... It's still early days, and we shall see. But for me one of the main points of school was for him to meet Chinese kids his own age and form friendships, and learn the language and culture that way...

[kdavid]

But for me one of the main points of school was for him to meet Chinese kids his own age and form friendships, and learn the language and culture that way...

Then you may want to consider Hong Kong or Taiwan, where, from what I understand, they're more open to the West, Westerners, and children have a childhood.

To over-intellectualize the issue, Chinese, especially here in Harbin, cannot get past the issue of race. Harbin, while a big city, is still very Chinese, and still has relatively few foreigners.

In general, Harbiners do not have the cosmopolitan urbaneness of their metropolitan peers, and this stymies their faculty to approach relationships with "the other" with an open mind. In short, they're benignly racist. So while your son may be "included," he'll always be on the outside. I imagine these prevailing attitudes will be different in fifty years.

Another issue for you to consider is how he'll maintain the tremendous linguistic strides he's currently making after you two leave China. Basics will likely remain fresh for some time, but if he's not immersed and using it on a regular basis, he may well forget it all by the time he's eighteen. At that point, how do you justify the sacrifices you'll have made?

[Theodora]

Another issue for you to consider is how he'll maintain the tremendous linguistic strides he's currently making after you two leave China.

I think we'll continue that element with lessons via Skype, keeping it fresh, learning new characters, and having him talk with our teacher, and write. I've yet to figure that one out, because I'm focused on now, but probably following some elements of a Chinese school curriculum over Skype in Chinese, rather than a CFL approach: he's aware that he'll need to continue to study, or it will go. I see him doing his iB in Bali, FWIW.

Chinese, especially here in Harbin, cannot get past the issue of race.

That's interesting, if depressing, particularly given the number of Koreans here. We've experienced incredible kindness. But, yes, we are outsiders. How long have you lived here, now?

Then you may want to consider Hong Kong or Taiwan.

I think, for better or worse, our interest lies with the mainland, rather than HK or Taiwan. Chinese is only one element in my son's education, but HK provides food for thought. Both are suboptimal, though, because of Cantonese and English in HK, and traditional versus simplified in Taiwan.

[kdavid]

How long have you lived here, now?

Almost seven years, and am as immersed as you can get.

Some of those who have known me intimately for years consider me Chinese, but to strangers I'm just another foreigner.

The "other" issue is something I've never come to grips with here, and has been exacerbated now that I see my son (half Chinese) being the target of prejudice. It's telling and terrifying that children his own age (3.5 years) have already learned how to discriminate against foreigners.

It's just frustrating to have been part of a community for as long as I have, and given as much I have, and still not be considered a part of that community.

[gato]

It's human nature unfortunately. Minorities everywhere have to deal with that.

[Theodora]

Is this a China-wide Catch 22 -- the cities in China in which it should be easiest to immerse, because there is less English spoken and fewer expats, are also the ones in which it is hardest to immerse, because there is also more racism, albeit benign -- or a Harbin-specific Catch 22?

I can't emphasise enough the extreme kindness and support with which we have been treated by everyone here, btw. At least on the superficial level, I've found Harbiners incredibly welcoming to us. Our language is so weak that that we haven't yet crossed that barrier to hit the further barrier that you describe.

[imron]

I can't emphasise enough the extreme kindness and support with which we have been treated by everyone here, btw. At least on the superficial level, I've found Harbiners incredibly welcoming to us.

This will generally be true of most places you go in China. As a foreigner you will be treated as a guest, and guests are generally treated well. The issue is like kdavid mentions, when years later you're still being treated as a guest despite any and all efforts at integrating with society. It will be less so amongst your close circle of friends, but to society at large you'll always be seen as an outsider. I don't think this differs much in other cities either, even bigger ones such as Beijing.

As gato mentions, this is not limited just to foreigners in China, but in fact to foreigners/minorities in most places (even places that are considered multicultural).

[kdavid]

As gato mentions, this is not limited just to foreigners in China, but in fact to foreigners/minorities in most places (even places that are considered multicultural).

While I agree, there are some major differences.

For example, if I were in America and saw a minority walking by and said to my friend, "Look! A (enter minority name here)! Check out that (stereotypical race-specific facial feature)!" I'd likely not only be severely berated by said minority, but also likely garnish the ire of surrounding passers by.

I spent my adolescence in Orlando, FL. During my sophomore year of high school, a friend of mine had a Japanese exchange student stay with her for a semester. Throughout the duration of her stay, the student appropriated many "American" customs. By the end of her stay, she had truly become "one of the gang."

Along a similar vein, I'm reminded of many ABC friends who were jokingly referred to as "bananas" by some (i.e. yellow on the outside, white--American--on the inside). In neither case did nationality or ethnicity deter white peers from accepting the other as a true equal.

A final point: In America, people of different races are, in general, assumed to be American. It's only after one opens their mouth and speaks with a clearly foreign accent that a typical American will second-guess the initial assumption.

In China, there's little diversity/multiculturalism outside of the major cities. And even as a member of some inner-circles, I'm still held at arms length despite the fact that in many regards I'm just as culturally Chinese as a member of the Han race.

[gato]

Can you say that you are culturally Chinese if you are white and grew up in Florida? Your expectations might be too high. But I know what you are saying. You want to be treated as "one if us" by the locals, and that doesn't often happen, and it's disappointing, but maybe it's something one can live with. Many adult immigrants readily accept it as a fact of life.

Many ABCs feel that they are in a bit of a no man's land: neither accepted as fully Americans nor as really Chinese. But that's probably getting too off topic.

[Theodora]

A couple of points here. I think the sheer numbers of Han Chinese -- over 1.5billion of them -- in relation to non-Han Chinese (and, yes, I know that's a political minefield in itself) means that multiculturalism is always going to be difficult, because there are always going to be more.

Britain's multicultural. My personal identifier for someone who's British is that they sound British -- skin colour doesn't come into it, but if they sound like a native speaker, they count as British (and whatever else they choose to identify as as well), while a new immigrant who doesn't sound like a native speaker doesn't yet count as British. EDIT. To clarify: it wouldn't stop them being one of the gang, but it would stop me thinking of them as a Briton.

I don't know how many non-Asian people there are in China who speak Chinese well enough to, let's say, pass for a Chinese person over an hour or two on the phone -- 100? 1000? -- but even if it were 10,000, it would be a tiny, tiny fraction of 1.6billion Chinese, and not enough to start the drive towards this sort of multiculturalism.

Back on topic: I'd just like to apologise for dismissing the HSK lists out of hand. We played around with HSK flashcards last night, and it produced a lot of AHA moments in terms of linking character-sound-context-sense-function (oh! THAT's what that means), and generally consolidating literacy gains.

I'm going to have a little look around for HSK flashcard games that are actually fun for him to play, but if anyone happens to know of a fun HSK flashcard game that a tween might enjoy, that would be great. We tried the one on quizlet, but he kept putting his pinyin marks on the wrong vowel (not the wrong mark, just in the wrong place on diphthongs), so if anyone happens to know one that's set up with pinyin using numerals rather than the marks, that would be fantastic...