The Learning to Read Process

[Chief123]

This may be a dumb question but here goes.

You come across something new for the first time. Let's say 生病.

What is your "process" for learning that word?

Looking it up in the dictionary and putting it in a list of some kind (flashcards, yellow legal pad, etc.) is a "given".

Then what? Tomorrow you go through the list and just try to remember where you saw this word and make a wild guess? If it's right you go on to the next card? If it's wrong what do you do - go on to the next card anyway? The next day (or week depending on your list) you come across it again and again just try to remember where you saw it last time?

Thanks for any input on how you do this.

Mark

[Guest realmayo]

I put it into an electronic flashcard programme, Anki, which uses spaced repetition (SRS) to show my the card at ever increasing intervals, unless I get it wrong, in which case it resets those intervals to zero and I start the process again.

I normally copy/paste or type out the sentence where I saw the word, and maybe mention where (i.e. what film or tv show) and have this displayed at the same time as the "answer".

[Chief123]

I'm doing that and feel that my progress isn't fast enough or that I'm learning enough which is why I asked about the "process".

Here's how, in real life, I'm trying to learn to read. Please critique it. Note that this depends on having the materials in electronic format in the beginning.

1. I change the text's font to one that includes zhuyin fuhao by the side. I normally do this by copying and pasting into Word and then changing the font for the whole chapter/document.

I do this because most of the things I need/want to read, I need to USE first (many times today) in speaking/listening.

2. I review the text for words I don't know - based on the zhuyin. I add those to my Anki vocab list.

3. I do my best to understand the text, context, meaning, etc. based on the zhuyin for the immediate use.

4. I do my Anki study.

And here's where I think I have a problem. I don't go back and try to read the chapter without the zhuyin simply because there are still too many words/characters I don't know. So I stay in zhuyin "mode" except in Anki.

When I have tried to read without the zhuyin after going through this process, I'm "learning" based on what I remember from the zhuyin. In other words it's not based on the fact that I've "learned" a certain word, per se, but based on the fact that I remember that a certain word in a certain position (headline, first in paragraph, bolded, close to words I DO know, etc.) or because I know what the phrase is in English/zhuyin.

For example I may have studied and know that the sentence in a certain paragraph of the handbook is "Using the computer too much without resting, isn't good for your health." I might know five of those words but not the rest but then I guess because I know the word in English, Chinese pronunciation, and the context. I know "health" in all those ways but I do not know, perhaps, the characters.

"Health" from this example then may not show up very often in Anki because I have a lot of words there so in the end I haven't learned the word and not sure I ever will.

I'm not sure any of that makes any sense to anyone else except me. That's my process. I'm sure it's flawed - lack of progress is prevalent.

I'm open to any suggestions.

Thanks.

Mark

[gato]

I do this because most of the things I need/want to read, I need to USE first (many times today) in speaking/listening.

I don't go back and try to read the chapter without the zhuyin simply because there are still too many words/characters I don't know. So I stay in zhuyin "mode" except in Anki.

How many new words are you seeing per page?

If you are seeing more than a dozen new words in a page (about 600-800 characters to a page), then the writing is probably too hard for you at this time. But if you need to learn this for work, then you got to do what you got to do.

[imron]

1. I change the text's font to one that includes zhuyin fuhao by the side.

Don't do this. At least not initially because your brain will take the path of least resistance and for you that means it will focus on the zhuyin and not the hanzi. What you need your brain to focus on is the hanzi, so first try to read it without the zhuyin fuhao and then only switch it on for the parts you're having difficulty with. Once you're done, turn it off again, and re-read everything without it.

Obviously there will be tradeoffs in time and effort depending on what you need the material for, so for some things you might just always turn it on and for others you might make more effort before doing so, but the longer you rely on zhuyin fuhao, the longer you'll rely on zhuyin fuhao.

When you turn the zhuyin fuhao off but then realise you only recognise a word because of its position rather than its shape, stop for a few seconds and really analyse the characters and the shapes/strokes that they are made from. As you're thinking about this, think of the meaning and also the pronunciation. It might also be worth making the font size larger so you can see the characters in more detail.

[li3wei1]

I couldn't quite follow your description of the procedure, but it sounds like you're using zhuyin a bit too much. If you can get to the point where you're using it only as a pronunciation reference, i.e. the first time you learn the word, and on the flashcards to make sure you get it right, it's much better. Having it next to the characters when you're reading is just too distracting.

Ah, Imron beat me too it.

[Lu]

Try to find something to read that doesn't have too many new characters. Struggle through the text word by word, grammar pattern by grammar pattern, noting all the words (and grammar) you don't know. Learn the new things for a few days until you know them reasonably well. Then go through the text again and be amazed by the fact that you can now read it without much trouble. This of course only works if the text is not overly difficult to begin with. When you come across a freshly-learned word, test yourself on pronunciation & meaning to remind yourself that yes, you do know this word.

I agree with the above posters that you might want to use zhuyin a bit less. Try reading the text without any annotation and only look things up when you really don't know them.

[anonymoose]

Maybe I'm a bit behind the times now that all these digital resources are available, but I used to print off interesting texts to read, and then write the pinyin above that characters that I did not know. I also used to highlight useful words or phrases that I thought would be worth paying special attention to.

I agree with Imron that you should avoid zhuyin as standard in your texts. Like pinyin, it should only be used to remind you of the pronunciation of characters you do not know. You should never "read" zhuyin, as this is a useless skill that will distract you from the real objective of reading characters and waste your time.

I also think that Anki can be a double-edged sword. Its benefits are clear, but it has the disadvantage of hammering vocabulary out of context. I don't advise against using Anki, but I don't think it should be your only method of vocabulary practice.

On my printed texts, I used to list the unknown vocabulary (by hand) at the bottom. Then, obviously, all the vocabulary would be relevant to the text. The advantage is that you can review the vocabulary, and then go back to reading the text to see how much you have retained and how much your comprehension has increased. The new vocabulary is also easier to remember as it has a definite context and continuity that Anki doesn't give. You can keep the texts and review periodically, much as you would review Anki, with the advantage that all the relevant and related vocabulary is kept together.

[Lu]

On my printed texts, I used to list the unknown vocabulary (by hand) at the bottom.

IMO one disadvantage of this is that it because very easy and tempting to look at the bottom of the text as soon as you're not sure about a word. Also, while context is of course important, a great advantage of Anki and other learning without context is that your retention of the words doesn't get connected to its presence in that particular story/page 14/near that coffee stain. You'll see the useful words again in other stories and contexts, and if you know them well, they can then in turn help you figure out the other words in that new context (or just improve your reading speed).

[Chief123]

Thank you all so much. This is all very helpful. I believe that I have been too reliant on the zhuyin. Part of this is based on how my daughter is learning Chinese characters and my wife's insistence that by reading things this way it will eventually stick - like it does with all the children in Taiwan.

Just to clarify I'm talking about reading only at this point.

A couple questions:

1. I've seen several times where people have recommended a maximum number of new words a day that you would input into your SRS.

So if you have an article and there are let's say 100 words you don't know and you were inputting 10 a day then that means it would take 10 days to get through that first page? You haven't "learned" anything yet we're just talking about putting them into Anki.

2. If my assumption is true on #1, as far as process goes would it be better to read and re-read that first article or move on to the next one before all the words are put in the SRS?

In many cases I would only make it through the first 10 words if 10 was my daily limit.

3. Final question (this time around). I have to use the stuff I'm learning in every day life, every day responsibilities, etc. Reading is becoming more and more a requirement and more and more of a hindrance the longer I'm not doing it well. Would you concentrate on the materials I need to learn for my responsibilities and ignore things like children's books/comics/etc. or would you do a combination of both - real life and then easier materials at the same time?

Thanks again.

Mark

[Demonic_Duck]

Take the training wheels off, read the texts through the first time without zhuyin/pinyin (to be honest this is even *more* damaging with pinyin, as your brain is pre-programmed to snap to those 26 familiar symbols of the Latin alphabet. I discovered the severity of this problem when watching a German TV program subtitled in Chinese and German - even though I could glean more meaning from the Chinese than German subtitles, my brain wouldn't allow me to focus on them, instead focusing on the mostly incomprehensible German).

Every time you come across a new word, look it up in your dictionary. If you have a smartphone and Pleco, this is as simple as using the OCR or handwriting function to input the character. Personally I generally prefer handwriting input, as it forces you to write down each new word at least once. It's also fairly forgiving, so it doesn't matter too much if your stroke order isn't 100% perfect.

If this proves to be overly torturous, as others have said, your materials are probably at the wrong level for your reading comprehension, and you should attempt something simpler (even if it is way below the level of your listening comprehension).

Edit (to cover questions in previous post):

1) Again, you shouldn't be reading articles at the level where there are hundreds of new words. Stick to ones where you can understand most words by sight, even if your reading speed isn't great. On the other hand, you may decide that certain new words in the article you're reading aren't worth committing to long-term memory at your present level. Good examples would be proper nouns for obscure people and places.

2) Personally I'd find it depressing working through the same article, day after day. I can't comment on its efficacy for learning new words in the shortest amount of time, but I would suspect that a better method would be to read more widely, but perhaps around the same subject.

3) You may find that you have different expectations of reading different material - reading a children's comic for entertainment, reading a graded text in your textbook/reader for the bread and butter of your learning, perhaps reading a short but more specialised text to improve your vocabulary related to its subject matter, reading a slightly more complex newspaper article for gist to improve reading fluency and evaluate your level/progress. Basically, the amount you read for pleasure would be dictated by the amount of free time you have and are willing to dedicate to it.

[Guest realmayo]

Yes, if you can possibly change your reading material to give you a more manageable number of unknown words you'd end up spending more time reading rather than just deciphering. How much better is your listening? Could you understand almost everything in these texts if they were read out to you? If not, consider that your task isn't just to learn to read: you also need to learn how the language works, so you need to do more than just learn vocab and characters. Children reading a children's book will normally have heard the grammar and vocab before lots and can probably use it fluently in speech, but as a foreign learner your situation is different. Definitely consider graded readers and maybe a textbook. Even if you end up with a reader that's too easy you'll still be improving your reading (speed, comfort, etc).

[gato]

Those offering advice here should consider the context of previous threads started by the OP. His situation is that he is proficient in spoken Mandarin (good enough for work), having lived in Taiwan for 2+ years, but is much further behind in reading.

I suspect that he's frustrated because he wants to move from beginner level to professional level asap, therefore the hundred of new words per article and the 5000+ words in flashcards. I think he might need to work with easier material first (maybe newspapers). What exactly are you reading now that's giving you hundreds of new words?

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/39759-got-anki-ready-to-go-now-what/

Got Anki Ready to Go. Now What?

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/38930-taking-vocab-to-the-next-level/

Taking Vocab to the Next Level

[Guest realmayo]

Oh in that case just learn the characters! Reading and writing them. With SRS. Wouldn't that work? Couple it with easy readers so the process and speed of reading is improved.

[Chief123]

Yes I understand 95-100% of the words when I hear them and I do hear them quite often in meetings, classes, etc. I can reliably reproduce (say back using the right terminology) a smaller percent. I typically use simpler words (some say too simple) when speaking.

All my reading plans and goals seem to get off track quite often, not because of lack of discipline or time studying, but because I've got to get ready for the talk or class or phone call tomorrow - which is all spoken and even though my speaking is okay I'm not to my comfortable level yet by a looonnnnngggg shot.

I'm using Anki and the other advice given in the past but keep getting caught up in the tomorrows and frankly the reading isn't as important for tomorrow as being able to teach the 45 minute class. In the end this is probably what's killing me. I am working so hard on my Chinese that I'm not able to work on my Chinese the right way.

I just picked up something off the desk of my wife's to give you an example of what I can read. I picked the first 100 characters on the page and I know 30 of them for sure (no "words") but there are duplicates.

Using my typical process as described above, I can see that I know about 90% of the words if they were spoken to me.

[gato]

Can you say what you've done in terms of studying since the thread above from last Sept, so we can see how it can be improved?

How many characters and how many words have you learned to read (with a high degree of confidence) in that six months?

Can you divide your time per day spent on flashcards, reading learning materials, and reading for work (teaching? What subject?)?

I am inclined to suggest that you make flashcards a priority since your oral Chinese is so far ahead of reading. Can you spend at least 2 hours per day on flashcards? I'd suggest one session in the morning, and another at night, to achieve the best spaced repetition effect. If you have more time after the two hours of flashcards, then you can do more reading.

Since you already have to read for work, you are presumably getting enough practice and can't afford to neglect flashcards in favor of reading other materials (such as comic books or other stuff).

[imron]

1. I've seen several times where people have recommended a maximum number of new words a day that you would input into your SRS.

I'm a big fan of setting a quota for number of new words to add to an SRS/learn per day. This is not to say that you stop reading after X new words, or don't look up other words, just that you only add a fixed amount each day the list of words that you will actually study properly (this amount will differ from person to person based on how much time you have to spend), and don't spend too much time on the words outside of this quota (perhaps just enough to understand the basic meaning, but no time spent actually trying to create flashcards/remember the words).

The general idea is that as long as you are doing regular reading, the other words will repeat themselves soon enough and will be added another day, and by limiting the number of new words you can spend some quality time learning the ones you do add really well. If you try to add all the new words at once you'll end up learning none of them because there's just too many.

If you are time limited, then I would also recommend the flashcard addon for Pleco, which reduces the effort/time involved in creating new cards to zero, then you can spend more time revising, and less time managing cards.

[li3wei1]

As you already know how to say a lot of words, you can probably add lots of cards to the deck at the beginning, especially if you concentrate on words that you already use in conversation. Then you're just working on getting the link between the sound and the symbol. This could give you a real boost, getting your reading recognition rate up to the point where it's less slow and tedious. It may help if you throw them in in groups, like words that use the same character, i.e. for the example you use, 生病, you could make cards for 生活, 生产, and 生命. Then start adding the words that are completely new, but if you're understanding 95% of conversations, that could be awhile.

[Guest realmayo]

Wouldn't it be easier to add 病, 活, 产 and 命?

[li3wei1]

I was assuming the OP would be using word flashcards rather than single characters. I think that would be easier/more productive given his situation, but perhaps a combination of both would work as well.