Double 3rd tone of same word, what to do?

[Tulee]

Hi, i know this might seem basic, but i would like to know, if i have a reduplicated word I.E 想想，should i read it as:

Either: xiang^2 xiang^3

OR: xiang^3 xiang^5 (this second one is silent, "fifth tone"

Basically, do i do 2-3 or do i make the second one without a tone.

Many thanks guys

[creamyhorror]

2-3.

[heifeng]

Ummm Be careful, this is not a one size fits all answer & you may get different answers based on the 'standard' (Taiwan Vs. Putonghua).

But since you first asked about a 'reduplicated' word in general (& then listed 想想 a verb--see notes below), note that for Putonghua, The tones are going to depend a bit on the word & its usage and any decent 普通话 text will give you some examples of what the patterns are, such as for 重叠动词，名词， 副词, 形容词 etc. (Look for AA, ABB, AABB, etc construction explanations)

In the meantime, here is a link with some descriptions:

Reference #1:

http://www.pthzx.net.../200605/92.html

Excerpt

1．关于上声变调

　　在双音节词语里，上声作为首字总是产生变调，变调结果有二：一是变为阳平调，二是变为半上声调。上声变为阳平调的条件主要是后字也为上声调，如：产品、导体、勉强、口语、永远等。　　其次，上声在下列格式的轻声音节前也变为阳平调：

　　动词重叠式：走走、想想、瞅瞅、洗洗；

　　方位词“里”：桶里、水里、火里、嘴里；

　　其他：把手、想法、给你、找我。

　　上声在阴平、阳平、去声前出现时均变为半上声调，如：本家、本科；本名、本能；本性、本色。上声在下

Reference # 2, Point # 6: http://hudong.fsjy.n...o.asp?InfoID=99

轻声

普通话里，除四声以外，还有一种又轻又短，听起来声调很不明显的字音就叫轻声。

在普通话里，应该成轻声的有以下几种情况：

(6)重叠动词和重叠名词的第二个音节读轻声。例如：试试 、哥哥

Reference #3 http://zh.wikipedia.....BD.9C.E7.94.A8

Check out section: 轻声的作用

[muirm]

An example where you usually pronounce it 3 5 is "姐姐", so like heifeng said, there is not a single rule that applies to all duplicated 3rd tone words.

[Hofmann]

Well, let's try to make rules anyway. Are there any 3-5's that are not two of the same character and nouns?

[heifeng]

And also NOT nouns?

well, 3-3 changing to 2-5:

想起、举起、点起（动词重叠）

雨里、水里、米里、井里、手里（方位词）

add more later for 3-3 resulting in 3-5 (But probably not much outside of nouns & repeated characters), let's see..(after & if I remember to check some books that is)

However, I think the title of thread was same word (=character?)...soooooooo, let's attempt to clear up that issue first

[陳德聰]

#3 heifeng you just blew my mind.

After reading OP's question I sat there saying 回去想想 over and over and over thinking I was crazy because it sounded like 2 5 but felt completely right. I never noticed that before, and I guess it suggests that the "no-tone" sandhi process happens after the 3rd tone sandhi process, very neat.

[creamyhorror]

Heh, more complicated than I thought. Sometimes I apply the neutral tone after converting to a 2-3 (when trying to go for the "mainland" accent), but I think of the 'base' as being 2-3.

Good point on 姐姐 being 3-5, muirm. I have to say I usually pronounce that 3-1, and treat it as an exception.

[renzhe]

Well, let's try to make rules anyway. Are there any 3-5's that are not two of the same character and nouns?

好好 comes to mind.

(same character, but not a noun)

[alanalian]

I have to say I usually pronounce that 3-1, and treat it as an exception.

Here's another example:

好好学习， hao3 hao5 xue2 xi2

[alanalian]

Generally，we use 3-5 to talk about our relatives.

E.g. 奶奶，姥姥，姐姐

Actually，the second character is always in 5th tone no matter which tone is the first one while talking about relative.

E.g. 哥哥（1-5）、弟弟（4-5）、爸爸（4-5）、妈妈（1-5）、舅舅（4-5）、叔叔（1-5）

[陳德聰]

I thought it was relatively normal for Taiwanese people to say 姐姐 as 3 2 as opposed to 3 1 as posited by creamyhorror in #8? 哥哥12, 弟弟42, am I crazy or just tired and making things up again.

[creamyhorror]

I thought it was relatively normal for Taiwanese people to say 姐姐 as 3 2 as opposed to 3 1 as posited by creamyhorror in #8? 哥哥12, 弟弟42, am I crazy or just tired and making things up again.

Here in dialect/colloquial talk you might hear 哥哥 kor3 kor2, 弟弟 di3 di2, 爸爸 ba3 ba2 and 妈妈 ma3 ma2, but that's about as close examples of X-2 tones as I can think of. Oh, some pronounce 姐姐 as zeh3 zeh2 (tseh3 tseh2), which sort of matches your first statement. I think that might be Cantonese influence.

I think I also hear ge1 ge1, di1 di1, ba1 ba1, ma1 ma1, and of course jie3 jie1. These are the more "Mandarin" pronunciations to my mind.

It doesn't really mean much for standard pronunciation, though. Familial usage isn't a good yardstick.

Many people would probably also say 好好 hao2 hao3, but that's simply because of the general lack of neutral tones here.

[heifeng]

Rezaf, for 好好，you may want to check this out from the first link I provided:

5．关于形容词重叠形式的变调

　　1）AA式与AA儿式变调辨析

　　AA式单音形容词重叠形式，后字是不变调的，有些人习惯把后字变读为阴平或轻声是错误的，要注意改正，例词如：绿绿的、嫩嫩的、慢慢地、好好地、长长地、偷偷地等。AA儿式末音节为儿化音节，是口语里的重叠格式，儿化音节要变读为阴平调。如慢慢儿走、好好儿工作、早早儿起床等。

[alanalian]

5．关于形容词重叠形式的变调

　　1）AA式与AA儿式变调辨析

　　AA式单音形容词重叠形式，后字是不变调的，有些人习惯把后字变读为阴平或轻声是错误的，要注意改正，例词如：绿绿的、嫩嫩的、慢慢地、好好地、长长地、偷偷地等。AA儿式末音节为儿化音节，是口语里的重叠格式，儿化音节要变读为阴平调。如慢慢儿走、好好儿工作、早早儿起床等。

Well, it depends.

If you were having the examination, maybe you are correct.

However, if you talk to a native Chinese speaker with this rule, it will be very strange if you say 'hao3 hao3 学习' , even without '儿化音‘.

[Altair]

For what it's worth, we discussed some of these issues previously here.

[lingo-ling]

Here in dialect/colloquial talk you might hear 哥哥 kor3 kor2, 弟弟 di3 di2, 爸爸 ba3 ba2 and 妈妈 ma3 ma2, but that's about as close examples of X-2 tones as I can think of. Oh, some pronounce 姐姐 as zeh3 zeh2 (tseh3 tseh2), which sort of matches your first statement. I think that might be Cantonese influence.

Yeah, in Taiwan, you'll often hear the "kinship tones" (3-2): ge3ge2, di3di2, mei3mei2 (sometimes written 美眉), etc. But when the kinship tones aren't used, ge1ge1 and ma1ma1 are pronounced with their full tone values. Neutral tones aren't used as often in Taiwan as they are in Beijing.

[tooironic]

Are neutral tones ever used in Taiwan? I can't think of any examples.

[lingo-ling]

The second syllable of, say, 爸爸 ba4ba and of 妹妹 mei4mei are neutral in Taiwan. As are particles like 了, 的, 嗎 etc.