Classical Chinese via Japanese

[xuexiansheng]

@Spin13 I would recommend finding a copy of the Rouzer. With a background in Japanese you can make use of the additional pronunciations he provides for the characters and texts. I'm still working on it from our study group, you could follow along with that and post in those older threads. Maybe you could find an online bookstore with a good return policy and order the books you are interested in and return the ones you don't want. Good luck!

[spin13]

Thank you all for your comments.

[bluetortilla]

 

 

I first thought to learn Mandarin, but I have very little incentive to learn Mandarin except as a vehicle for Classical Chinese. I have much more incentive to learn Japanese- anime and such, friends who speak Japanese and want me to learn, general appreciation for the sound of the language, etc.

 

I don't think studying anime and such will help you with Chinese classical philosophy, but a study of Chinese characters certainly would, including via Japanese. Particularly if you also study the etymology of the characters (which of course will come from China). Probably the best Japanese texts to study are the kanbun (the dread of almost every Japanese high school student!). I've never attempted to study kanbun myself but's the closest thing I know of to a classical Chinese text. I'm sure tanka and haiku would be useful as well.

 

Of course learning Mandarin is the best way to go into classical Chinese, but I don't think it's imperative. Modern Japanese is very far removed from classic Chinese indeed, but modern Mandarin is far removed too (just less so). However you approach it, Classical Chinese will be a challenge in its own right, quite independent of modern language. Mind you I have very little experience in studying classical Chinese, but I can speak with some experience in my studies of Japanese. While characters are quite complex to learn, they do offer the great advantage of holding a semantic component regardless of pronunciation, functioning between languages and dialects in a similar way as Latin roots for example, only with no essential phonetic element. So wherever you go they mean the same thing (in general). In my experience, they tend to change little over time semantically either (but when they do change it can be very dramatic), which makes them very useful. I think the study of characters more than anything else would help you. Of course, there thousands upon thousands of them, and widely used ones in China are not necessarily widely used in Japan and vice versa. You will have to add to that list all of the archaic characters that you'll encounter as well.

 

But unless you're making new translations of classical texts, why not just study Japanese as the language you prefer and rely on others' translations of classical texts? I think I've read five or six different English translations of the Tao Te Ching for example. That helped tremendously in getting a better grasp of the original text.

[raydpratt]

samwu33 and spin13:

 

I am studying Mandarin because I eventually want to be able to read classical Chinese texts related to the internal martial arts.  This would include many of the moral (and/or divination) classics that are not specifically martial, such as the Book of Changes, etc., but which have been incorporated into the theories or moral traditions of many of the internal martial arts.

 

I have a book for learning to read classical Chinese, but even that book suggests that it would be easier to learn the basic meanings of characters before attempting to learn classical Chinese.

 

Are both of you interested in martial arts? And, specifically, internal style martial arts?

 

Do either of you have access to living teachers who demonstrate internal power?

 

When I was 20 years old (35 years ago), I met and briefly studied under an internal-style master who now has a website with youtube videos, etc., and whom I trust to be a true master of internal martial arts:

http://yichuankungfu.com/

 

However, without easy access to him, I do not know of any comparable internal martial arts masters anywhere else.

 

My concern is that without live instruction from and experience with a living real master of internal martial arts, there is no way to read the word 气 and know anything more about it than by reading it in English.

 

Will the bulk of esoteric classical Chinese be lost to all those who do not already know what it really means as an actual experience? Are the meanings of many of the characters all but lost?

 

Without human beings who can continue to give life to the meanings of many of the ancient characters, can the characters carry and impart those meanings?

 

What do you think?

[ParkeNYU]

As other members have mentioned, yes, you can learn Classical Chinese through Japanese 漢文 study materials.

 

However, for the richest embodiment and appreciation of Classical Chinese (especially for poetry), I recommend biting the bullet and learning Middle Chinese (I personally prefer the later variety).

[bluetortilla]

 

As other members have mentioned, yes, you can learn Classical Chinese through Japanese 漢文 study materials.

However, for the richest embodiment and appreciation of Classical Chinese (especially for poetry), I recommend biting the bullet and learning Middle Chinese (I personally prefer the later variety).

 

Sure enough. And vice versa. Using classical Japanese to study classical Chinese might help you a lot but you'd miss out on the nuances of classical Japanese as well. Despite all the cultural debate, Japanese isn't simply a 'copy' of Chinese but rather shows its own colors from the very beginning. I would take the projects separately. There is a lot to gain from both.