Question about the usage of "le" 了

[Serpenta]

Hello everyone! Nimen hao!

I have been studying Mandarin Chinese now for two and a half months. However, I have ran into a problem with understanding the usage of "le". I'm using Rosetta Stone (among other things) to learn Mandarin and as I'm sure all of you know, Rosetta Stone doesn't provide translations or explanations.

wo men de fù mǔ gěi wo men xiě xìn le.

nàn hàizi gěi le tā yí ge dàn gāo.

My problem here is the usage of the word "le." I've tried to figure out the difference in the sentence structure but have been unable to figure out why sometimes "le" is put right behind the verb, and other times "le" is put at the end of the sentence.

Both sentences seem to follow the same structure:

(noun)(give verb)(noun that received thing)(item given)

The sentence structures are the same except of for the usage of "le".

If anyone could explain why le jumps around like this i would be very grateful.

Many thanks! (And my sincerest apologies if this is in the wrong forum)

[skylee]

I can't explain the le (and I have big difficulties in reading the pinyin above). But you should know that the first gei3 does not function exactly the same way as the second gei3.

[HusbandOfWuhan]

Your first prob is that you are not using Hanzi汉字 yet.

1.wo men de fù mǔ gěi wo men xiě xìn le. 我们的父母给我们写信了。

In this above sentence the 了 doesn't come after 给 because "给 somebody 写信" is a set expression structure by itself that cannot be broken. That's why 了comes at the end.

2. nàn hàizi gěi le tā yí ge dàn gāo. 男孩子给了她一个蛋糕。The 了 is to indicate past tense "...gave her a cake".

[daofeishi]

1.wo men de fù mǔ gěi wo men xiě xìn le. 我们的父母给我们写信了。

In this above sentence the 了 doesn't come after 给 because "给 somebody 写信" is a set expression structure by itself that cannot be broken. That's why 了comes at the end.

2. nàn hàizi gěi le tā yí ge dàn gāo. 男孩子给了她一个蛋糕。The 了 is to indicate past tense "...gave her a cake".

That is not completely accurate. The first thing that is important to understand is that there is not only one 了 in Chinese, there are two. One aspectual 了₁ and one modal 了₂. I don't know much about their precise history, but they supposedly derive from different words in Old Chinese that merged together in modern Mandarin.

了₁ indicates that a verb has been completed, but not necessarily in the past. It could indicate future completion as well, as in 吃好了₁就给我打电话 (call me when you have eaten[completed]). You therefore shouldn't talk about it as the past tense. Chinese doesn't have tense markers.

了₂ is the one that usually occurs at the end of the sentence and is primarily used to indicate that the situation mentioned in the sentence is a change from a previous state or new information. 他喜欢喝茶 (he likes tea) vs. 他喜欢喝茶了₂ (he has started liking tea/he likes tea now), or 快要下雨了₂ (It will rain soon [and that is new information to us]). It also occurs in some other grammatical patterns, but we'll leave that discussion to some other time.

They can even occur together in the same sentence: 我写了₁两封信了₂ = I have written[completed] two letters [and this is a new state of affairs], i.e. I've (just) written two letters.

In the two sentences above, we are dealing with different 了s. In the first one, the 了 is modal: 我们的父母给我们写信了₂，because the information is new to the listener.

In sentence number two, the 了 is aspectual. 男孩子给了1她一个蛋糕. The 了 indicates that the action was completed.

Another important reason why the 了s occur in different places is that even the 给s in those two sentences are not the same! The 给 in the first sentence is a coverb that indicates the direction of the action. In sentence number two, 给 is the verb "to give". Different grammatical objects call for different syntax.

Your first prob is that you are not using Hanzi汉字 yet.

Disagree. But learning characters from the start is a Good Idea ™.

I'm using Rosetta Stone

There's your problem

[PengHaoShi]

I think both are Verb 了， although the first stands at the end of the sentence. The verb is 给。。。写, now here apply different rules:

1) when there is a coverb (s), the 了 stands behind the last one,

2) 写 should not stand alone, it should always have an object, in this case 信,

3) if the object is a one character object, the 了 can also stand behind the object,

4) daofeishi might be correct and it's also a sentence end 了, in this case the structure might be 了了, which results then in only one single 了, whether this is the case can only be judged from the context.

Confused? Welcome to 了, one of the most confusing things in Chinese. I once had a teacher, a chinese, who was writing her doctoral thesis about 了.

Have a look here:http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/ , especially http://resources.allsetlearning.com/chinese/grammar/Uses_of_%22le%22 and the links provided under websites.

[lama3]

I think the crux is the number after the noun in the object,if it's "a" letter,then the ”了“can be put forward.(fu mu gei ta xie le yi feng xin)The "了”in the second scetence also can be put to the end if it's not "yí ge" dàn gāo.(nan hai zi gei ta dan gao le).

It's also can be understand as the first sectence is a very common thing but thins in the second second sectence is not easy to predict.

[Glenn]

Someone correct me here if I'm wrong:

You can also have aspectual 了₁ in 我們的父母給我們寫了信了 (wǒmen de fùmǔ gěi wǒmen xiě le xìn le), although the sentence-final 了₂ can override it. In this case I think the meaning is exactly the same whether it's there or not (not being there might be more natural, or at least common). If you just had it and not the sentence-final 了₂, the sentence would sound incomplete, and you would either need to add a numeral + measure word (or demonstrative, like 這封 (zhèi fēng) or 那封 (nèi fēng)) or add another clause -- 我們的父母給我們寫了兩封信 (wǒmen de fùmǔ gěi wǒmen xiě le liǎng fēng xìn) or 我們的父母給我們寫了信，就去打網球 (wǒmen de fùmǔ gěi wǒmen xiě le xìn, jiù qù dǎ wǎngqiú) or something (the second one could be a future event).

I feel like I'm finally starting to get a grasp on these 了s, so I wanted to chime in and get some feedback.

[Edit] I should say that any attributive (phrase) works to make the sentence sound complete, not just numeral + measure word or demonstrative.

[daofeishi]

You can also have aspectual 了₁ in 我們的父母給我們寫了信了

As PengHaoShi was getting at, 了₁ is usually placed after the object if both the verb and the object are one character/syllable, so 他们写信了₁ and 他们写信了₂ can both be correct interpretations depending on the context. Sometimes both interpretations are intended and both 了s merge into a 了₁₂: 他们写信了₁₂, and the only way to know which one is intended is to infer it from the context. Because most speakers don't split single-character V+O, 他们写信了₁₂ would probably be more common than 他们写了₁信了₂.

[zoe]

That is not completely accurate. The first thing that is important to understand is that there is not only one 了 in Chinese, there aretwo. One aspectual 了₁ and one modal 了₂. I don't know much about their precise history, but they supposedly derive from different words in Old Chinese that merged together in modern Mandarin.

I partly agree with daofeishi. Only 了1 is modal and 了2 is aspectual. Besides, 了1 used at the end of a sentence also indicates chage of situation or state.

i.e. 下雨了。xià yǔ le （it is rainning now）

她结婚了。tā jié hūn le (she has got married.)

wo men de fù mǔ gěi wo men xiě xìn le. 我们的父母给我们写信了。了 in this sentence is supposed to be 了1 means "our parents has sent us a letter."

[Shirley_Chen]

1.wo men de fù mǔ gěi wo men xiě xìn le. 我们的父母给我们写信了 = wo men de fù mǔ xiě xìn gěi wo men le.我们的父母写信给我们了。

[daofeishi]

I partly agree with daofeishi. Only 了1 is modal and 了2 is aspectual.

I hope you are not claiming that the 了 in 男孩子给了她一个蛋糕 is modal?

Besides, 了1 used at the end of a sentence also indicates chage of situation or state.

Yes, the modal 了(among other things) indicates a change of state. I think I mentioned that in my post?

[zoe]

I hope you are not claiming that the 了 in 男孩子给了她一个蛋糕 is modal?

I mean 了2 is aspectual：男孩子给了她一个蛋糕。this 了 is 了2 not 了1.

[The Love Guru]

I'm a newbie, but doesn't it just denote the action is in the past?

[daofeishi]

I mean 了2 is aspectual：男孩子给了她一个蛋糕。this 了 is 了2 not 了1.

Are you saying that the convention is that the aspectual 了 is written 了2 and the modal is written 了1? That could be true, I don't remember which way they are usually ordered.

I'm a newbie, but doesn't it just denote the action is in the past?

No. No. No. No 了 has nothing to do with the past. 了 sometimes denotes completion (past, present or future) of a verb, and sometimes has other functions, which is why we have been talking about the two main usages of 了as modal (showing the attitude of the speaker) and aspectual (showing completion). The grammar wiki does a good job of explaining the difference.

[tooironic]

Indeed, 了 does not always have to refer to a past event/action. And I hate it when native speakers of Chinese try to ram this simplistic explanation down our throats. Just today I came across a situation where 了 does not refer to the past. I told my Chinese friend I rarely take photographs. He replied: 那你老了，你靠什么来回忆呢？" ("What will you rely on to jog your memory when you're old?") You can see here that 了 here just implies that the verb 老 is complete - it has nothing to do with tenses. In fact, Chinese does not have tense. And English only has two true tenses (present and past), but that's a debate for another day.