Taiwan-ji

[Guest Anonymous]

"nationalism is the last refuge of the scoundrel".... oscar wilde (i think)

Tell that to all those people here in the United States wearing the American flag on their body and constantly screaming "America is number 1" and support our war-mongering president who is "liberating" the world, one resource-rich nation at a time.

Or how about those face-painted Koreans at the World Cup. Actually, tell that to anyone who loves their country.

[Tei]

So back to the topic...

I think its an interesting system. But the question is, is the need for it great enough. And are there enough followers.

[ala]

Niubi that's twice you've said that without explaining yourself. wtf is the problem with this word [ Taiyu ]? It is used by the citizens of a de facto independent nation to refer to one of the principal languages spoken in their country.[/b']

"wtf is the problem with [using 台語 for Taiwanese Minnan-hua]?"

Answer: Because in Chinese, Taiyu 台語 should refer to the Daic language family (Thai 泰语, Laotian 老挝语, and southern China's minority Miao 苗语 are members of the Daic family), which has nothing to do with Minnan-hua nor Taiwan. Daic languages are not Sinitic (they aren't even now considered Sino-Tibetan). 台湾语、台湾话 are more appropriate terms for "the Minnan offshoot in Taiwan" than 台语. Or perhaps the Taiwanese need another name for the Daic languages (Taiwan also uses 台語 for the Daic languages btw). Using 台语 for Taiwanese Minnan-hua 台湾片闽南话sinisterly fuels the misunderstanding that the Minnan-hua spoken in Taiwan is not a Sinitic language, when it most certainly is.

People are easily mislead. Using 台语 for Taiwanese Minnan-hua is like using 满语 (Manchurian) for northern Mandarin 满大人/官话.

[wix]

Because in Chinese, Taiyu 台語 should refer to the Daic language family (Thai 泰语, Laotian 老挝语, and southern China's minority Miao 苗语 are members of the Daic family), which has nothing to do with Minnan-hua nor Taiwan[/b']. Daic languages are not Sinitic (they aren't even now considered Sino-Tibetan).

huh? I am not expert in linguistics but it was my understanding that the Sino-Tibetan language groups were sub-divided into Sino-Tai and Tibeto-Burman language groups. Sino-Tai includes all the major Chinese languages plus the Tai languages which include Thai and Lao. Also wouldn't the Tai languages be referred to as 泰语 in Chinese not 台語. I think the distinction is pretty clear. 台 is used in Chinese to refer to things associated with Taiwan and 泰 is used to refer to things associated with Thailand.

[ala]

no, that's wrong. Daic languages (Tai-Kadai) are not Sino-Tibetan, they once were believed to be though. Of course it's not completely settled, but that's not even on topic.

Also wouldn't the Tai languages be referred to as 泰语 in Chinese not 台語. I think the distinction is pretty clear. 台 is used in Chinese to refer to things associated with Taiwan and 泰 is used to refer to things associated with Thailand.

Either you didn't read at all what I wrote, or you disagree with me completely.

台語 refers to the Daic language family. 泰语 is Thai, a member of the Daic languages. When talking about Thailand specifically, we use 泰; when talking about the region that includes Laos, Thailand, and some of the southern Chinese minorities, we use 台. In proper terminology, 台語 = Non-Sinitic Daic languages.

The use of 台語 for Taiwanese Minnan-hua is due to ignorance of this convention. Obviously they have a right to call their dialect whatever they want. But the term 台語 for Taiwanese Minnan-hua is misleading. Like I said on top, it's equivalent to calling the Mandarin dialect (满大人/官话): "Manchurian" (满语）. Ever been to a library? Academic books on 台語 talk about the languages of the southern Chinese minorities and Thai, Laotian, etc. Minnan-hua is not a native language of southern Chinese minorities.

[wix]

Well, I admitted I am not expert in linguistics. According to Wikipedia:

The languages of the Tai family are found in Southeast Asia. They were formerly considered to be part of the Sino-Tibetan family, but are now classified independently as the Tai-Kadai family. They may be related to the Austronesian language family.

You learn something everyday. I still think you have to come to terms with the use of 台語 to refer to Minnanhua in Taiwan though.

[ala]

yeah, since it has become so popular and widely used. Languages and vocabulary always change.