Lip shape and tongue position for pronunciation?

[jmido8]

I'm having a really hard time pronunciatating some sounds in chinese correct and no matter how many times I repeat after my Chinese friends, I can't get it right. I don't think I will be able to make the correct sound either until I know what shape i need to make with my mouth and where the tongue needs to be. I'v tried asking my Chinese friends but they always have trouble showing me. Is there any websites or anything that can help me with this? Right now my biggest problem is with u. I also pronounce sh and x exactly the same. For example, if I say the word 雪 and 水，I literally say the exact same thing.

Thanks!

[PhreakOut]

i dont know if i can explain this any better then any of your friends... i think i can at least try to explain the 'X' sound to you...

What i usually do for the 'X' sound is i do like if it was an 'SH' sound in english (like in the word ashes), but put your tongue nearer to your lips as if you where pronouncing the 'S' sound in english (like the word silence), while leaving the rest of your mouth untouched.

This is the best explainaition i can provide you, i'm not english native so i hope you can understand it.

It basicly should be an english 'SH' with a hint of english 'S'...

Please one of the older members correct me if i'm wrong...

[PhreakOut]

This might help you as well

Oh, yea but you're in china right? you dont have youtube there.... right?

[Ruben von Zwack]

You mean the "u" like in yu, fish? For that sound you say a sharp ee (like in English teeth). Your tongue stays in exact the same position. Now purse your lips forward, and voila, you should produce a Chinese (y)u.

The Chinese yu is represented by "y" on the graph I'll add, "The standard IPA vowel trapezium". (source: http://en.wikipedia....i/Vowel_diagram)

You might find it interesting that it is positioned next to i (pronounced ee in English), not next to u.

[Glenn]

I thought Sinosplic's explanation was excellent.

http://www.sinosplice.com/learn-chinese/pronunciation-of-mandarin-chinese

[PhreakOut]

About the "U" sound if you mean the "U" like in 书 then it is like the "OO" sound in english i believe, as in book...

That might be an easy way to remember it 书shu = book...

always remember that the information i am giving is in acord to how i pronounce it, but as i am learning mandarin from portuguese and not from english (portuguese has the exact same "U" sound) i believe that this information is correct...

[Hofmann]

/y/ (Pinyin u or ü in various contexts) is like /i/ but with rounded lips. Also, this causes consonants in front of it to be rounded. Therefore, the initial of 雪 is more like /ɕʷ/.

[Demonic_Duck]

About the "U" sound if you mean the "U" like in 书 then it is like the "OO" sound in english i believe, as in book...

Nope, definitely not like the "oo" in book. Similar to the "oo" in pool (perhaps with lips even a little rounder).

For the different sound represented in pinyin as either "u" (ju, xu, qu, yu) or "ü" (lü, nü), you make an /i/ sound but move your lips to the same shape as for the "u" in 书, whilst keeping the tongue in the same place.

[PhreakOut]

sorry for my ignorance, but isnt the oo in book the same as the oo in pool?

[Glenn]

No, "oo" in "book" is more like "u" in "put".

[Hofmann]

He might think those are the same too.

PhreakOut, book, tool.

[Demonic_Duck]

The "oo" digraph in English can represent 3 distinct sounds, as in "book", "moon", "pool". The "oo" in "moon" and "pool" are considered to be the same phoneme. The pinyin "u" sound in 书, however, should definitely be pronounced similarly to the "oo" of "pool", rather than the "oo" of "moon".

In a certain dialect of British English (I'm struggling to think of which particular region, and I'm not very knowledgeable on where dialects come from) the "oo" in "book" and "moon" are pronounced the same. However, this is rather non-standard.

[PhreakOut]

really? ok i wont doubt you guys... but i always thought they where the same, what is thed diference btw?

[roddy]

Look at Hofmann's links.

[Demonic_Duck]

In IPA: /bʊk/, /mu:n/, /pu:l/ (again, the "oo" sounds in moon and pool are allophones so they're written the same, but the sound is actually different).

[PhreakOut]

oh.... i get it now thank you, book its like more open while tool is more like the "u"... right?

[Demonic_Duck]

If you mean the pinyin "u" in 书, then yes. If you mean the English "u", then no (that can either be /ʌ/ or /ʊ/).

[PhreakOut]

i meant the pinyin "u" i know the english "u" is very diferent... like the english sound "u" from the word "failure", is very diferent from pinyin "u" in 书。

but then again there's also a big diference beetween 书 and 去 and both are written with a pinyin "U"... how about that? must be some crazy rule like in 云 also written only with a "u" yet the sound is completly diferent from either 书 or 去。。。

care to explain?

[Demonic_Duck]

The "u" in "failure" is actually just /ə/.

The "u" in 云 is, I think, very similar to the "u" in 去, perhaps a little shorter.

[Geiko]

but then again there's also a big diference beetween 书 and 去 and both are written with a pinyin "U"... how about that? must be some crazy rule like in 云 also written only with a "u" yet the sound is completly diferent from either 书 or 去。。。

In pinyin you've got u and ü (路 vs 绿), that correspond to IPA /u/ and /y/. However, in front of q, j, x, y... only ü can be used, so they decided to omit the two dots because there would never be a confusion in qu - qü, or ju - jü... and it was faster to use "u" instead of "ü".

• ü is written as u when there is no ambiguity (such as ju, qu, and xu), but written as ü when there are corresponding u syllables (such as lü and nü). In such situations where there are corresponding u syllables, it is often replaced with v on a computer, making it easier to type on a standard keyboard.
  

(Quote from Wikipedia).