Confusion about the words for which, where and there and that.

[Iotrez]

Hi all,

I'm a little confused about the words for which, where , there and that in Mandarin.

In one audio book I have it says that the word for "which" is pronounced nay ger (using the 3rd tone) and the word for "that" is nay ger (using the 4th tone).

However in another audio book it says that "which" is nar ger(3rd tone) and that is na ger(4th tone). But this same book also says that "where" is nar(4th tone).

So are "where" and "there" the same?

Thanks a lot.

[PengHaoShi]

I am not sure, what kind of transcription this is. But it is not Pinyin, which is the official transcription of Mandarin Chinese (Putonghua). I believe, they refer to:

那, na4, nei4, that; then; in this case (different pronunciation used in northern and southern China)

哪, na3, which?; what?; how?

个, ge4, measure word

儿, er, which is widely used in northern China and just adds an "r" at the end of a syllable, if the syllable contains 2 vocals at the end, one will be left out. Used like this, it has no meaning.

IMHO, such kind of audio book will lead you to nowhere, because it is just the starting point of endless more confusions. From my point of view, you should at least learn Pinyin, if you are serious about learning Chinese you should also learn the characters.

[Iotrez]

Thanks,

So is the word for "which" and "where" both the same?

Sorry its not pin yin, I was just spelling the words phonetically as I hear them in the audio book.

Yes maybe its just that the two different audio books I've listened to are using different pronunciations.

[roddy]

Have a read of this and see if it helps. Which courses are you using?

[Iotrez]

Thanks,

So it seems that "where" and "which" are both sounds the same.

And it sounds like "that" is more commonly pronounced nei4 than na4.

And "this" is more commonly pronounced zhei4 than zhe4.

I'm using the Michel Thomas mandarin course and also the US foreign service institute mandarin course. The second one was developed decades ago though, so maybe this accounts for the differences in pronunciation.

The recent Michel Thomas course says "that" is pronounced na4 where as the older Foreign service Institute course says "that" is pronounced nei4.

[PengHaoShi]

No, the words are different, but they use the same character. The vast majority of Chinese words use 2 (or more) characters, because the characters often carry a lot of different meanings and as such are ambiguous.

where: 哪儿, nar3 (northern China) or 哪里, na3li (southern China)

which, who: 哪个, na3ge4, 个, ge4, is the general measure word and refers to people or things.

Also: 哪些, na3xie1, which (a few of), 哪样, na3yang4, which sort of.

So you see, na3 is a character to form question words, na4 cannot do this, it refers to things, persons or places in the meaning that and is used in a similar way:

那里, na4li, there (like: that place over there),

那个, na4ge4, that (person or thing),

那些, na4xie1, that few ..

那样, na4yang4, that sort of

[Altair]

However in another audio book it says that "which" is nar ger(3rd tone) and that is na ger(4th tone). But this same book also says that "where" is nar(4th tone).

So are "where" and "there" the same?

You seemed to have used an inconsistent spelling or maybe have a typo in the spelling of the word for "which." In your system, "which" probably should have been "na ger," rather than "nar ger."

Using your spelling system, "Where" is never "nar(4th tone)." It should be "nar(3rd tone)." Either the second audio book is wrong, or you may have remembered it incorrectly. The difference between "there" and "where" is that the former is said with the 4th tone, and the latter with the 3rd tone.

As for the the other words, meaning "which," "that," or "this," you are allowed to vary the vowel. The versions with the "a" vowel are the formal, "correct" pronunciations. The versions with the "ay" vowel are the informal pronunciations. The vowel in the words for "there" and "where," however, do not vary and are always "ar."

By the way, the vast majority of frequent posters on this site are familiar with the Pinyin system of spelling Chinese characters with Latin letters. This system is overwhelming the preferred one these days, outside of Taiwan. Using any other system without clearly indicating it will confuse most people. In this case, the Pinyin system uses an "r" at the end of a word to indicate the pronunciation of an "r"-like sound that is sometimes seen as standard and sometimes as strongly regionally marked. The words for "which," "that," or "this" do not have this sound, but the words for "there" and "where" do. Those people who find that these words for "there" and "where" (nar4 and nar3) sound too regional use slightly different words, replacing the final "r" with the syllable "li" (pronounced in the neutral tone)(nali 4,0 and nali 3,0). Most books tend to teach one variant or the other, without telling you that the others exist and are very common.

[Ruben von Zwack]

Everything has already been said and explained, I just want to add, or rephrase it:

"na" with

tone 4 = demonstrative pronoun = written 那

tone 3 = question pronoun = written 哪

They don't come on their own (usually), so you combine them, like PengHaoShi explained so well, to form a proper demonstrative or question pronoun.

[liuzhou]

Learn Pinyin! It will take an afternoon.

Then you will be dealing with a standard, internationally accepted pronunciation system. What you are using at them moment is more confusing than helpful.