Do you find Wale-Giles more intuitive?

[Demian]

I was talking to a Chinese friend the other day when the subject of Taiwan came up. We were chatting in both Esperanto and Chinese. When I mentioned "Chiang Kai-Shek", she said she did not know who he was. I was surprised. I was expecting to learn something new about the Chinese civil war. It took us a minute or two. I had to copy and write the generalissmo's name in Chinese characters before she could understand who I was talking about. Then she said the correct spelling was "Jiang SOMETHING." I immediately understood she had Pinyin-ised his name. I asked if she did not know Wale-Giles. She wondered what it was.

Now when I think over it, I imagine many people in China find Pinyin more intuitive. But is not Wale-Giles more intuitive to some others? Compre "Kung Fu" to "Gong Fu."

What do you think?

[gato]

"Chiang" is Wade-Giles, while "Kai-shek" is actually Cantonese. See this from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia...._Kai-shek#Names

In 1912, when Jiang Zhiqing was in Japan, he started to use the name Chiang Kai-shek (Chinese: 蔣介石; Pinyin: Jiang Jieshi (help·info); Wade-Giles: Chiang Chieh-shih) as a pen name for the articles that he published in a Chinese magazine he founded (Voice of the Army (Chinese: 軍聲). (Jieshi is the Pinyin romanization of the name, based on Mandarin, but the common romanized rendering is Kai-shek which is in Cantonese romanization. As the republicans were based in Canton (a Cantonese speaking area, now commonly known as Guangzhou), Chiang became known by Westerners under the Cantonese romanization of his courtesy name, while the family name as known in English seems to be the Mandarin pronunciation of his Chinese family name, transliterated in Wade-Giles)

[skylee]

Compre "Kung Fu" to "Gong Fu."

What does this have to do with this discussion? Kung Fu is Cantonese.

[imron]

The majority of people in mainland china do not know and/or are unfamiliar with Wade-Giles. It is not in any way intuitive unless pehaps you come from an English speaking background, but even then it still comes down to what you have learnt. I much prefer pinyin over Wade-Giles.

[roddy]

Any kind of romanisation scheme fight is always pointless. Everyone will always prefer the one they learned first, you stop using them after a while so there's no point changing, and the differences between them are too marginal to make it worthwhile switching anyway. You'd need to take down posters in elementary schools across China. Who's got that kung fu?

[Lu]

Kungfu is Cantonese, but also Wade-Giles for gongfu. As already mentioned, Chiang Kai-shek is neither pinyin nor Wade-Giles. Were you speaking English or Chinese with your friend?

I don't think Wade-Giles is more intuitive than pinyin. People who don't know any Chinese will butcher 'Ch'ing' less than 'Qing' and 'Mao Tse-tung' less than 'Mao Zedong', but if you're actually learning Chinese, pinyin is a bit easier (in my opinion) because it doesn't need umlauts and apostrophes. On the other hand, countless foreigners have learned Chinese using W-G and countless libraries still use it, so it's not exactly bad.

[Ruben von Zwack]

I believe especially the letters "ch" will cause confusion between people who are used to one system or the other.

I often find pre-pinyin spelling, like names like "Hsiao", kind of old fashioned and charming.

But intuitive only because I have an idea of how Chinese should sound. Where I live, someone without that idea would probably pronounce Hsiao "hədzyau".

[skylee]

Apostrophe is used in Pinyin too.

If one knows pinyin one can use it for typing Chinese characters, as ultimately people use Chinese characters in writing. People who uses zhuyin fuhao can also use it to type Chinese characters. So this is the added benefits of using/learning these two pronunciation-based tools. Can one type Chinese characters using Wade-Giles?

[liuzhou]

What do you think?

I think you are wrong. Wade-Giles is only now hung on to by Americans and a few ancient others.

There is nothing 'intuitive' about any transliteration scheme.

Pinyin, however, is officially recognised by every international institute from the United Nations to the International Standards Association and everyone else inbetween. E-G was never really recognised in China and certainly isn't now, although most Chinese people remain baffled by people referring to their capital as Peking.

The typing point is a good one. Wade-Giles input? Forget it.

[Guest realmayo]

although most Chinese people remain baffled by people referring to their capital as Peking.

Or baffle well-meaning foreigners by referring to Peking University as Peking University.

[liuzhou]

Or baffle well-meaning foreigners by referring to Peking University as Peking University.

Or as they say and put it "běi dà "

I've never heard any Chinese person refer to it as Peking University in any normal conversation. I've only ever come across Peking University in university publicity material aimed at Americans.

[Demonic_Duck]

Having learnt pinyin from the start (after a very brief flirtation with zhuyin fuhao) and never learnt Wade Giles, I find pinyin far more intuitive, although of course I'm biased. With that said, I think pinyin is a wonderful system, and seems a lot less clunky than Wade Giles. It only takes a very short time to learn, and once you learn it you won't even think twice about why "x" is /ɕʰ/ or "q" is /tɕʰ/, it will just be second nature.

[Guest realmayo]

I've never heard any Chinese person refer to it as Peking University in any normal conversation.

You should broaden the range of Chinese persons that you speak to normally. The university's English name is Peking University and some Chinese people use the English name while speaking English. If I'm speaking English I don't say "I'm off to Milano tomorrow".

[skylee]

Re #13, if you are speaking in English, do you say "Lyon" or "Lyons". I am going to Lyon, and I write "Lyon" all the time. But a friend says that it should be "Lyons" in English. I find it very confusing.

[Demonic_Duck]

If I'm speaking English I don't say "I'm off to Milano tomorrow".

The modern English name of 北京 is Beijing, as per the pinyin, it's just that 北大 chooses to continue to use the old name to refer to itself in English. Cf. "Peking duck" or "Bombay mix", which are also somewhat set expressions using a name that is itself outdated.

[skylee]

Tsinghua does the same (the name is used in the address of its website). As does Tsingtao beer.

[renzhe]

Or as they say and put it "běi dà "

I've never heard any Chinese person refer to it as Peking University in any normal conversation. I've only ever come across Peking University in university publicity material aimed at Americans.

Don't know anyone who attended Beida, but I know that Tsinghua alumni use the old romanisation when referring to their university in (written) English. Never Qinghua.

Peking University is the international name for 北大, it is used in all international contexts, publications, books, etc.: http://academic.research.microsoft.com/Organization/14100/peking-university

Re #13, if you are speaking in English, do you say "Lyon" or "Lyons". I am going to Lyon, and I write "Lyon" all the time. But a friend says that it should be "Lyons" in English. I find it very confusing.

I think that both are acceptable in today's English, with "Lyons" being the "traditional", original English name, and "Lyon" becoming more common. I find the issue of "translated" names like that fascinating. I live close to Seville, and I have to switch between "Seville", "Sevilla" and "Sevilha", depending on who I'm speaking to. Cologne is another one, as are Londres, Hamburgo and Lissabon....

Being a pedant, I insist on using the correct name in the language I happen to be using. If you switch languages often, it can be quite a pain in the ass

[Demian]

So many responses and so fast. I am surprised. It seems everyone is for Pinyin.

Thanks to Gato and Skylee. I did not know Chiang Kai-shek and Kung Fu are Cantonese.

Liuzhou: I think you are wrong. Wade-Giles is only now hung on to by Americans and a few ancient others.

.

Thank you. I was merely asking for an opinion. I did not make a statement that Wade-Giles is better.

Lu: Were you speaking English or Chinese with your friend?

Give me your ear. It was Esperanto (世界語). Now be quiet. We do not want a war here.

[Guest realmayo]

Skylee, Marseille/Marseilles is another instance, but if you're referring to speaking, these days I think most people wouldn't pronounce the "s" in English, even if they still spelled it that way. There's stuff here: http://www.linguism.co.uk/language/more-on-french-names

[Guest realmayo]

Demonic_Duck: Indeed. The English name for 北大 is Peking University. The English name for Milano is Milan.

Okay this one's more tricky. If you are English and in an English-speaking country talking to native English speakers with no connection with Chinese or China, would you say:

- Tomorrow I'm going to Beijing (pronouncing the "j" as ʒ, like the middle of "leisure"; no tones)

- Tomorrow I'm going to Beijing (pronouncing the "j" as standard in Chinese but without tones)

- Tomorrow I'm going to Běijīng (pronounced as Standard Chinese)

Personally I think pronouncing the tones sounds a bit daft.