I made this and I'd love feedback

[Kelby]

Hey there folks,

So, I live and work as an English teacher here in Zhengzhou. I've been learning Mandarin for five years now and have gotten a bunch of questions from coworkers and western friends here about how to dive into learning Chinese.

I started a website and created an ebook (I'm so incredibly amateur at it) to point people to for more info. The thing is, I'd hate to give everyone something that doesn't work. I've checked over the book tons of time and I'm at the point where I'd love some outside feedback.

If you would be willing to take the time to browse the book and give me some feedback I would be eternally grateful.

http://www.radicalreaderchinese.com/ebook.html

You can reach me directly at barker.kelbyj@gmail.com

-Kelby

P.S. Notice that the book is listed elsewhere on the site for sale, but that's simply to see how many visitors I get who would be interested in it.

[imron]

All of the content on this website exists uncopyrighted in the creative commons. Attributions appreciated but not required.

I haven't looked at the book, but I would consider rewording this sentence on your site as it might lead to confusion - especially as "creative commons" is a well known type of licensing that explicitly retains copyright - and has different licences available for people who may or may not require attribution.

So, either place your stuff in the public domain (in which case it is uncopyrighted), or license it with a creative commons licence - which means you retain copyright but give people a broad licence to reuse that content in specific ways either with or without attribution.

[Kelby]

"creative commons" is a well known type of licensing that explicitly retains copyright - and has different licences available for people who may or may not require attribution.

So, either place your stuff in the public domain (in which case it is uncopyrighted), or license it with a creative commons licence - which means you retain copyright but give people a broad licence to reuse that content in specific ways either with or without attribution.

Thanks Imron! Got mixed up with my terms there. Making the change to make it clear that everything is indeed public domain.

I see I've got some people who clicked through to the book. Any thoughts yet? I'd love to know what I can do better.

[Silent]

I have not read it, but to me to table of content is confusing. First you have number and below that you refer to chapters that are not in order.

I also find it odd that you first have a chapter telling why not to start with learning characters immediately and then a chapter about goals. (maybe it's explained in the text I did not read). To me the goal comes first and then the method. And if the goal is only reading skills learning characters is what you should start out with.

Without reading, only a very quick scan, so it may be very wrong, or perhaps properly explained in the text. My first impression, is that it's very much written from a personal perspective, a personal experience and little consideration is given to different needs due to different circumstances and personality. Nothing wrong with personal experience, it may be very usefull, however to me the title suggests a more methodical approach.

[Kelby]

Thanks so much, Silent. When I was pulling it out of rough draft I messed around with the order of things so it looks like those changes didn't make it to the table of contents.

Thank you for the note about the title. The guide is very much based on my personal experience, so going through and remodeling how the information is presented right off would be a good thing. The idea I operated with while writing the book involved sharing the tips and strategies that worked best for me as I have studied Mandarin, so I'll get to work on making that idea come through more.

Since many of the foreigners I meet here in Zhengzhou are turned off to the idea of studying Chinese because of character learning, I wanted to try and push the idea that you don't need characters right off the bat pretty hard. The book is meant to give a number of actionable steps that can get someone set up with a base of personally tailored knowledge from which to start pursuing larger goals (e.g., learn how to have a basic conversation, read a menu, etc.). All of this is meant to be done pre-character learning, because in my eyes learning characters is a completely separate skill set that can be pursued as a goal by itself. These ideas also probably need to be driven home a lot more from the get-go as well.

It occurs to me that while organizing everything I intended the character studying delay thing to serve as a sort of preface. However, since I want it to be more actionable it does make sense to put that further back in the content.

Nothing but golden feedback to this point. I'd love to hear more if anyone has it

[li3wei1]

Since many of the foreigners I meet here in Zhengzhou are turned off to the idea of studying Chinese because of character learning

For me, the characters are my prime motivation. If Chinese were an alphabetic language, I don't think I would have started it at all. The idea of studying the language without learning the characters is like drinking decaffeinated coffee, or eating low-fat yogurt, or reading a modern translation of the bible.

[skylee]

i think #6 is very well said. But I wonder what version of the Bible does li3wei1 read. King James Version?

[Kelby]

...like drinking decaffeinated coffee, or eating low-fat yogurt, or reading a modern translation of the bible.

Haha, I love it. I'd never dream of telling anyone that they should hold off studying characters forever because, well, they rock. I just want to show people they can learn for the first couple of weeks before choosing to climb the mountain themselves. I'm trying to get peoples' foot in the door before they can come up with any excuses not to learn this awesome language.

[li3wei1]

WARNING: OFF-TOPIC DIGRESSION

Yeah, King James all the way. I don't care if it's not an accurate translation, or any of the other problems with it. It's one of the foundation stones of the English language. Not that I've read all of it . . .

The bible has been translated into so many other languages, I wonder if the same thing exists in another language: one old translation that wipes the floor with all the others, that has been memorised by so many generations, with such total market saturation, that it has shaped the language.

[Manuel]

And back on topic again, thank you very much.

Kelby, I have just downloaded your book and skimmed over it, pausing at some sections that interested me. Overall I like your book, especially the part on setting measurable goals and postponing the learning of characters at the beginning, which was my approach too. Identifying a personal frequency list is a very useful tip too. A lot of what you have written is useful even outside a language learning context.

In my opinion the pronunciation guide is very rough though: trying to find an equivalent sound in another language (English in this case) is a double-edged sword, and should only be used with caution as a crude starting point, otherwise you'll be on your way to laowai pronunciation (because you keep thinking of Chinese in terms of another language). Similar pronunciation guides abound on the Internet and I think they should come with a big warning.

[Kelby]

Haha, li3wei I appreciate the dedication to the ol' English Speaking roots.

Manuel, thanks so much for the positive feedback. I have to admit I was feeling a little leery about putting up the pinyin stuff because I knew it was a tad off base. After thinking about your feedback for a while, I thought that it might be worthwhile to seek out info and create a resource entirely about pinyin and the sounds it represents. Give me some time and I'll bring another little guide to the table about it ;)

I'm thinking perhaps the pinyin portion needs more depth or needs to be cut (outside links to sources included of course).

Was there anything that you would suggest I add or seemed to be missing?

[chajadan]

since the learner starts with all pinyin, I recommend referencing tools that can take files and websites and convert them to pinyin -- this gives them piles of free content they can access

and ditto here on likely the character part: I went straight to character studying first. I believe my character to word knowledge ratio is still > 1, but with my learning inclinations, I just couldn't imagine not learning through reading hanzi

--charlie

[imron]

The problem with such tools is that due to the difficulties involved with processing and segmenting Chinese text, they are never 100% accurate. This can be dangerous for a beginner learner who won't necessarily be able to spot these mistakes.