Mandarin affricates

[georjungcocaine]

Hi y'all!

Cut to the chase: where is the stop element of the affricates /t͡ɕ/ and /ʈ͡ʂ/ pronounced? That is, for example for / t͡ɕ /, is it the case that the place of articulation of the stop element is retracted to an alveolo-palatal position (around the alveolar ridge), so that element could be represented phonetically kind of [ ȶ ] and [ ȶɕ], or is the stop element actually dental/alveolar, as the normal t sound of mandarin, so that /t͡ɕ/ is in fact [ t͡ɕ ]. What about the retroflex affricate? Is its stop element realized in the post-alveolar area?

Thanks in advance!

PS: I am concise enough in my question not to get replies which vaguely divert from the issue.

[OneEye]

PS: I am concise enough in my question not to get replies which vaguely divert from the issue.

If I remember right, the next line to that song is "I'm the king of wishful thinking."

[roddy]

Hi Georjungcocaine!

I've removed the CAPS from your username and topic title because, well, CAPS?, and changed your text to a normal size. I've also removed your other topic as I agreed with the member who reported it as a thinly-veiled attempt to obtain pirated material, which we have some suggestions about here. I've also opted not to act on your post report complaining about the above post, as frankly it's the occasional beams of humour shining through the clouds of excessive moderation which make life on this forum bearable.

Welcome to the site. I hope you find it comfortable.

Roddy

[davoosh]

Georgejungcocaine, I think the stop element naturally assimilates to the point of articulation for the whole affricate.

So the /t/ in / /t͡ɕ/ will be rather palatal. Remember IPA is only a good approximation, it's not an absolute reflection of every minute detail. Just try pronouncing it yourself and you'll see that your tongue remains in the more or less the same position through the articulation.

[georjungcocaine]

Thanks for replying davoosh; yet, I need sb who is quite sure about the right "technical" answer, therefore I'll keep on the lookout.

[davoosh]

Good luck with that, I think most people will tell you exactly the same. Especially since it's assumed both elements of an affricate have the same place of articulation,

Wikipedia; "In the case of coronals, the symbols ‹t, d› are normally used for the stop portion of the affricate regardless of place. For example, [t͡ʂ] is commonly seen for [ʈ͡ʂ].

Plus the answer is obvious from just pronouncing it yourself...

[Hofmann]

Personally,

/t͡ɕ/ alveolar

/ʈ͡ʂ/ pre-palatal

[georjungcocaine]

All right then; thank y'all for your help, it's put and end to the issue!

[imron]

I need sb who is quite sure about the right "technical" answer,

Hofmann to the rescue!