Dealing with pesky English while learning Chinese

[nath]

Hi all,

I thought I'd post this in speaking and listening as these are the areas I'm getting most frustrated with.

I'm an Englsh person learning Chinese at a uni in KM, living in dorms with two non-english speakers and one guy whose fluent. My classes are now 8/9 people, 5 of which are westerners, a few of whom seem keen to speak English outside (and even in) class.

Any experience of how to deal with these people? I tried just speaking Chinese, and in the end I'm sure I pissed off most of the English speakers around the uni who wanted to speak to me but just couldn't respond due to ability (or couldn't be bothered) to reply in Chinese. I'm going to embark on this non-English speaking pact again, but was wondering if anyone else had the same problem? As soon as I speak English, my Chinese speaking and listening skills hit the floor...I'm only 初级二 after all....

[fanglu]

Be anti-social; they'll soon get tired of talking to you if you don't have anything to say and never want to hang out with them. That will then free you up to talk to people who will speak to you in Chinese.

[Meng Lelan]

I used to turn off my hearing aids when the English speakers approached.

[ChTTay]

Did you ever tell them you have a non-English speaking pact with yourself?

If you still want to be civil with them, if not best friends, you should let them know you are doing this.

When I was studying, A girl in my class would only speak Chinese and a few guys jokingly complained/teased her (not to her face) until I pointed out that her Chinese is better than her English. Then they understood and were fine with it. Only spoke with her in Chinese from that point unless they couldn't say what they wanted to in Chinese, then they'd just try in English.

[abcdefg]

How to deal with other native English speakers who only want to use their mother tongue is a problem I've never successfully solved.

I've tried explaining that I'm here to learn Chinese and therefore want to practice Chinese, like ChTTay said above. I haven't tried framing it as a self-imposed "language pledge," though that might be better. Sometimes my explanation works, but not always. They think I'm being aloof, and I probably am. Sometimes they are understandably offended.

Be interested in hearing other peoples' approaches to this issue. I don't have many (any) expat friends. Though Europeans often work out better, the few times I've mixed with American expats, I come away wishing I hadn't.

The conversation inevitably turns to baseball and party politics after moving through the fascinating basics, such as, "Oh, so you're from Texas. Cool, I knew someone from Texas once in high school. A guy named Bob Smith. Maybe you've met."

[tysond]

How do people find the language pact working? Would not actual immersion (electronic or real) or partial immersion be more effective than having conversations in broken Chinese with non-native speakers? By the time your Chinese improves enough to be interesting, surely you can just talk with native speakers anyway? I feel like it's a nice little bit of practice at times, maybe slightly better than muttering to yourself, but not a game changer.

Anyway, I notice a lot of us native English speakers have trouble letting go of just speaking in English all the time (US, UK, Aus/NZ, etc). I find it less of an issue with Europeans as they often know a few languages and often are developing one or two on the side at all times. My feeling is, that if you fast-forward what's going to happen, your Chinese is going to accelerate and you'll learn very little from people like this unless they get real busy real quick (right now you are probably just learning bad pronunciation from them). So might as well get ready to jump overboard now. Unless, you know, one or two of them are *really* attractive.

In the environment you are in it will be hard to eliminate English from others altogether but you can limit it to a small part of your day. Aim for increasing the % of waking hours in a Chinese environment. Listening is most important (and easiest to add). Conversation is OK but it's limited until you have enough words.

Are you sure you can't just fill your hours outside class with Chinese listening? Watching Chinese TV? And if you want to speak, seek out native speakers - you are in China - is there a lot of Putonghua in Kunming? I hear the accent isn't too bad. Get WeChat (Weixin) on your phone, and start randomly chatting with strangers on it (use the Look Around feature). Add a message that you want to practice Chinese and learn about Chinese culture and make sure you use your most attractive photo. Ask people out for tea/coffee. Go KTV.

Personally, a lot of my social and work groups are mixed with a lot of English speakers. If people have poor/no Chinese we just use English. Otherwise it's usually me and 9 Chinese or overseas-Chinese people, so I am explicit on when we should be speaking Chinese (some of my meeting agendas clearly call out which language). Sometimes I have to be tenacious (e.g. at international social events) to push native Chinese speakers to use Chinese. Benny Lewis talks about language negotiation tricks with native speakers on his blog. But honestly, in China you don't really need this, as it's so easy to find people who can't speak English.

[Lu]

English is not my native language, but if someone who spoke Dutch natively tried to speak only Chinese to me (for the entire conversation, not just a few words or sentences) I would be annoyed too, to be honest. That's just deliberately hampering communication, and it's not like we'll learn Chinese from each other. The best way to deal with this problem, imo, would be to seek out Chinese-speaking friends and situations as much as possible, and limit the time you spend with native English speakers while still being friendly (in English) when you do interact with them (except in class, in class people really should speak Chinese whenever possible). There are thousands of people in your uni alone who won't be your friend but whom you'll be friendly to, in whatever language, when you talk to them, let those native English speakers be some of them.

[nath]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm already on the 'weixin bandwagon' as I like to call it, and regularly engage girls in conversation- hence why my reading and writing skills are improving quick. I think it's a case of making new friends who can't and don't want to speak English. I'm on the Chinese music, but as for watching TV, I need to get more on this. Also Chinese films- does anyone know a good web resource to find films with no english?

I think I'm just going to be polite but aloof with my classmates. After all, I came here to learn Chinese for my future, and while it will be nice to add many friends, it's not the reason I came and decided to suffer dormitory life. As for the risk of offending my peers , I just hope they will understand why I'm doing this, and hopefully will see how fast I progress as a result...

[nath]

Ok, I see your point Lu, but Dutch is a rarity. I'm subjected to English everywhere, and by all nationalities, including I might add Chinese learners. For this later category I just use Chinese until they understand I won't give them English, or tell them I'm French and can't speak it. Say I speak to other English people in English, what about Americans? The rest of Europe, Korea etc? Before you know it, I'm speaking Chinese 20% of the time outside of lessons. I think the solution is simple- find Chinese friends, be civil and polite with everyone else and use basic, 'everyone can understand' mandarin.

[anonymoose]

I think the simplest solution is just to speak Chinese in class, which you should be doing anyway, and outside class hang out with Chinese people. If you don't hang out with other English speakers, then this problem won't even arise.

[Guest realmayo]

Find some Koreans/Vietnamese/classmates who aren't confident speaking English.

[abcdefg]

I like the @Anonymoose solution in #10, above.

[Lu]

Ok, I see your point Lu, but Dutch is a rarity. I'm subjected to English everywhere, and by all nationalities,

Yes, I completely understand that it's a much bigger problem for English than for Dutch. It means you need to avoid even more people (nationalities). Anonymoose's solution is the right one, I think. You can easily combine it with being friendly to English-speaking classmates, and leaving them after a few minutes to go hang out with your Chinese friends. That would make you the guy who has other friends, rather than the guy who doesn't want to talk to us.

[Ruben von Zwack]

It's kind of dangerous to learn a language with other second-languagers. I know very lovely people who think they speak German to each other, but in fact, it's some fantasy language. And what's worst, they systemise their errors and reinforce them with each other. Or maybe, what's worst is that when I correct them, they laugh it away, because after all, no one else except me ever has an issue with that specific verb or expression (of course not! Cause 90% of the people they talk to in "German" are Hungarian, French and Egyptian!)

Actually, I could make a long list of "worst" things, I better stop before I get too frustrated

[li3wei1]

I studied second-year Chinese in Middlebury, where we were supposed to speak to each other in Chinese all the time, 24/7. Of course that didn't happen. We tried, though, and it did force us to use a lot of the basic stuff over and over, and make us think about how to say things in different ways. So it was good, but I wouldn't push it to extremes. And you may find yourself happy sometimes that you have someone that you can speak your own language with now and then, when you're tired, or you need someone who understands your cultural references. I also support #10. Don't shun your English-speaking friends, but just make every effort to make Chinese-speaking ones.

[Guest realmayo]

It's kind of dangerous to learn a language with other second-languagers

I agree there are caveats, but I still think it's 100 times better than not speaking at all. Just my experience from a Chinese university where all my classmates and most of my friends weren't Chinese, nor really spoke English. Because I was always talking in Chinese, it quickly became completely natural to speak Chinese. Obviously you need native Chinese speakers too, to correct the mistakes. But if it was really damaging to spend time learning a language without a native speaker by your side, then self-study of almost any sort would be counter-productive.

[Silent]

Any experience of how to deal with these people?

Ignore them, that's the way I learned English. Admittedly, for me it probably was easier as I travelled around and had not really anything to do with my country(wo)man. In a more social context where you're 'stuck' with certain people, it may be harder but it's still a choice whom to hang out with. Accept meetings with natives and tell the English crowd you have different arrangements. An explanation may smoothen things a little. If people understand why you avoid speaking english it may help them to accept. Perhaps even motivate them to do the same. Obviously avoiding English completely without being too rude may not be possible, especially when you're used to be friendly and chat in English without complaints.

How do people find the language pact working? Would not actual immersion (electronic or real) or partial immersion be more effective than having conversations in broken Chinese with non-native speakers?

No scientific data, but I feel that it has positive effects.

- By avoiding another language you get immersed deeper then when switching, when continuously switching you tend to keep think in your mothertongue. With full immersion you start to think in the immersion language much faster.

- Non native speakers tend to use simpler words and speak slower which may help understanding, advanced non-natives may even have better grammar then the average native due to the (relative) absence of dialectical influences.

- A 'struggling' conversation tends to provide more anchors to remember how things (not) work.

- The simple fact you use the language actively helps you activate your passive vocabulary and internalise grammar rules etc.

Sure, only talking to non-natives is not the best way to learn a language. You need a fair amount of native exposure but specially at the lower levels non-native exposure can have it's advantages.

That's just deliberately hampering communication, and it's not like we'll learn Chinese from each other.

Strongly depends on context and language skills but when both are in China to learn Chinese I feel Chinese should be the language of choice. If the level in Chinese is low switching may sometimes be unavoidable. Though you may not learn a lot from each other, you may learn a lot from struggling to express yourself. You will be using the language actively and it will help move passive vocabulary into the active vocabulary. It will help to internalise what you already have learned. Using the language is of huge importance in learning the language.

[Lanchong]

Learning Chinese takes years. Do you intend on avoiding English for years? That sounds unpractical for numerous reasons. (What about your family? What about topics which it makes far more sense to discuss in English? What if you meet people who only speak English?)

I think it's better strike a balance between English and Chinese. It's like finding a good diet. The best diets are ones which you can easily follow for years and which still improve your health. Crash diets are unmaintainable in the long run and just cause unhappiness. For long-term Chinese learning you need practical, long-term habits.

[putonghua73]

Agree with ChaTTy and anonymoose. Be civil, but firm. There are plenty of opportunities to engage in Chinese in Kunming. Step a short distance from 文林街 and the University and you can find no shortage of people who will be willing to engage in Chinese. In fairness, a number of younger Chinese (inc. some older) will engage in English.

A good tip is to head to 翠湖公园 as there are plenty of older people, bring out your Chinese material and start studying. In next to no time someone will engage with you in conversation. This works for women in coffee shops, airplanes (Japanese girl on way back from Japan - ok, substitute Chinese material for Japanese on that occasion). I even had one girl who was working for a real estate agency ask for my details so we could "exchange". I wouldn't mind but I was with my then girlfriend at the time, looking at her new property on the outskirts of Kunming.

Lanchong's advice is golden re: striking a sustainable balance between a smattering of English and mostly Chinese.

Ok! Head to GoKunming.com and check out a number of the language exchange / activity partner adverts (Chinese people). Make the time and effort to make acquaintances and transform them into friendships. Accept some just will not work out and move on. The ones that do, treasure them and be flexible. Don't insist on Chinese 100% of the time. They may want an opportunity to improve their English. I found that my Chinese friends really encouraged me to speak Chinese (kind enough not to point out my slackness), introduced me to friends, invited me on holiday with them, etc.

If you really want to throw yourself in the deep-end, travel during your breaks by yourself and explore Yunnan / China. You'll be forced to deal with all different types of situations and not necessarily within your comfort-zone.

All the best with your studies and enjoy your time in Kunming!

[Silent]

That sounds unpractical for numerous reasons.

I think no-one has adviced to avoid English a full 100%. Sure a balance is needed as you don't want to cut out all your family & friends but that doesn't mean you have to build new relations in English. If they only speak English they go on the same heap as the people that only speak Archi, Sentinelese, Khoisan or some other 'weird' language.

It's like finding a good diet.

Absolutely not. A crash diet will come back to haunt you as your body will adapt to it and learn to store energy/fat every chance it gets. If you quite the benefits will disappear quickly. The language acquiered will largely remain. Deep immersion will help to acquiere the language faster and the better. With better language skills anxiety of not being able to communicate properly in daily life will be reduced and consequently reduce the need/wish to communicate in a secondary language.

If you can handle it deep immersion is definitely the way to go if you move to the studied language area. At home a more balanced approach may be better as the direct benefits of learning quickly are far less and the benefits of deep immersion are much harder to obtain.