Multiple 3rd tones in a row: when to convert to 2nd tone?

[J.P.]

I'd like to ask for tips in knowing when to convert 3rd tones to 2nd.

The main rules I've learned are:

• Divide a phrase into word groups based on meaning, stress and rhythm.
  
• If more than one 3rd tone occurs in a row within a word group, convert all but the last to 2nd tone. The last stays 3rd tone.
  

In basic textbook cases of tone sandhi (e.g., 你好), it's clear how to apply the rules.

But I've found it tricky to know what to do in more complicated situations. My stumbling block is the idea of "word groups". Below are some concrete examples where I'm not completely sure what to do. Some I have a good guess but I'm not positive, and a few I'm totally unsure.

I've read a lot about 3rd tone sandhi on this forum and elsewhere, but I'm still not sure. Native speaker friends tell me how they say it, but can't really give me good enough rules that I can follow on my own. I realize that to some extent, it's a question of time; some day (hopefully!), I'll get a feel for it myself. But in the meantime, I'd really like to have a better idea and not be stabbing in the dark.

Would some of you who have a good feel be able to explain to me how you pronounce these, and (most importantly) why?

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我小時總是很早起床。

Wǒ xiǎoshí zǒngshì hěn zǎo qǐchuáng.

我打網球了。

Wǒ dǎ wǎngqiú le.

我很喜欢打網球

Wǒ hěn xǐhuan dǎ wǎngqiú

我想请你打網球

Wǒ xiǎng qǐng nǐ dǎ wǎngqiú

觉得有点冷

juéde yǒudiǎn lěng

feels a little cold

你很友好

Nǐ hěn yǒuhǎo

小狗很友好

Xiǎo gǒu hěn yǒuhǎo

附近有酒吧.

Fùjìn yǒu jiǔbā.

附近有很好的酒吧

Fùjìn yǒu hěn hǎo de jiǔbā.

这样也很可能是最好玩儿的。

Zhèyàng yě hěn kěnéng shì zuì hǎowánr de.

我只想到你。

Wǒ zhǐ xiǎngdào nǐ.

[WestTexas]

I'm not sure this is even consistent among different native speakers. I feel this is suggested by the variety of rules out there and the lack of consensus. The idea of 'word groups' is vague, and anyway, is this even something that it's possible to apply while speaking quickly, on the fly? The only solution, it would seem, is to listen closely to native speakers and try to mimic them for specific phrases.

[陳德聰]

From a general linguistics point of view, it doesn't make sense for it to be inconsistent among native speakers of the same "dialect". There is a relatively large amount of research in completely inaccessible language surrounding Tone 3 Sandhi (T3S) that suggests an interaction of three or more fundamental rules that can account for all the different 'inconsistencies'.

I think that the concept of "word groups" is probably a simplified and watered down explanation of prosodic domain, which largely governs T3S.

Since prosody is a licensing factor in T3S, and native speakers consistently use prosody in the same way as each other to achieve specific information packaging, it should follow that there is a systematic way that this sandhi happens. I'll try to come back with some good papers on the topic later tonight.

"2nd" tone* *this is actually tonal reduction rather than tone shift, thus not actually being the same as Tone 2.

"half" 3rd tone

(i) 我小時總是很早起床。

(ii) 我小時總是很早起床。

To me these are both acceptable, but I naturally gravitate towards (i) because I see the focus of the sentence being that I got up early, whereas to me (ii) sounds like what I did early was get up.

[J.P.]

I agree that there has to be some consistency between native speakers in making and interpreting intonation patterns and their meaning. That's the whole purpose of language, after all ;).

Thanks for your explanation of the first question I gave.

I'm hoping more posters will give their insight as well. Several 3rd tones in a row occurs surprisingly often, so I'd really be interested in any tips on these examples, or deeper insight into when the 3rd-->2nd sandhi is applied.

[陳德聰]

Do you have the basics at least? I'd say just group verbs and their objects, and then all the remaining material groups into pods of 2 to 3 characters. The rightmost 3rd tone will always retain it's 3rd tone-ness, and everything left of it is subject to change.

 

我想请你打網球 - Even number of 3rd tones

我想(请你)(打網球) - Group verbs and their direct objects and change the tones.

(我想)(请你)(打網球) - Have leftovers? Give them a group.

 

我也想请你打網球 - Odd number of 3rd tones

我也想(请你)(打網球) - Same process as above

(我)(也想)(请你)(打網球) or possibly (我也想)(请你)(打網球) [though this is not how I say it, I am not sure if it is permissible...]

 

When it becomes "or possibly", that is what a lot of people will say is an inconsistency, but the main point is that the more leftward material is prone to tonal change and things make groups no larger than three 3rd tones in a row, because even numbers should form groups of two.