Guarantor for direct application (Tsinghua, Renmin/Renda)

[divirtual]

I'm looking into sending my son (who will graduate Grade 12 in the fall, and will be 18 years old in August) for a year or two of Chinese language training in Beijing. (I've taken enough Mandarin to appreciate a year of immersion in the local dialect).

My son is actually interested in studying engineering, and should be accepted at a Canadian university without issue. However, my experience with universities (3 different countries, personally!) give me an opinion that it's better for my son to study language now, and engineering later. Once you're in an academic program, it's hard to switch streams. (It's harder to look for engineering jobs 2 years after graduation, than right after graduation, when you have a placement office working for you).

I have a close friend who studied at Beida (and got flown out by the Canadian government durign the Tiananmen Square incident). He's recommended against BCLU, because he thinks that immersion in a full university experience would be better.

We were looking at applying directly to Beida, Tsinghua and Renmin/Renda. Now Beida has a minimum Chinese proficiency level requirement, so it's out.

Looking at the application forms to apply directly to the university, there's a requirement of a guarantor. This isn't the person who is financially responsible -- that would be me, as the parent -- but presumably someone who is a Chinese citizen would will vouch for the character of the applicant.

It seems to me that this is a showstopper to applying directly to a Chinese university.

If the applicant has an affiliation with another university (i.e. is already a student), there's a different application path, and there doesn't seem to be a requirement of a guarantor. (The university, in effects, acts as a guarantor).

Thus, the only route to get to Tsinghua would be to apply through a program such as PRCStudy (who presumably act as the guarantors). The structure of Access Mandarin fees are modest compared to the PRCStudy rates, but they don't seem to cover Tsinghua, and they would still require direct application (and I don't know about guarantors for them).

I would appreciate comments that anyone has on this situation. Are we really down to choosing between PRCStudy for Tsinghua, and BCLU (which I assume has no local guarantor requirement)?

[TSkillet]

e's recommended against BCLU, because he thinks that immersion in a full university experience would be better.

I don't know anything about applying to chinese universities - but I would say there's a converse to this. BCLU gives your son immersion in Beijing life - while being at Beida exposes him to foreign cultures. BUt those cultures aren't Chinese. My friends who studied in the larger Chinese Universities learned as much (or more) about Japan, Africa and Europe as they did Chinese. In fact - the immersion was in the foreign student community - not in a Chinese community

[gato]

I have a close friend who studied at Beida

Looking at the application forms to apply directly to the university, there's a requirement of a guarantor. This isn't the person who is financially responsible -- that would be me, as the parent -- but presumably someone who is a Chinese citizen would will vouch for the character of the applicant.

Maybe one of your friend's relatives can serve as a character witness?

[trevelyan]

I don't think it's a showstopper. I seem to remember enrolling at BCLU for a while without having one. You can always go the Chinese Embassy (I think its still up on St. George north of Bloor) and ask someone there. They must deal with this sort of thing.

Personal thoughts.... beginning language courses are more or less the same. The real advantage of Beida, Tsinghua and BCLU as is that they offer advanced mandarin classes. Most universities do not offer anything more advanced than intermediate because of the few number of foreign students who get that fluent. So beginners should consider a number of smaller universities too (Posts and Telecom, Renmin Daxue, etc.) and select one with the smallest class size. And make sure your son has enough money to hire a tutor.... don't rely on the university teaching him what he needs to know.

If the reputation of the Chinese school will matter for his application to engineering school (I graduated from UofT and don't think this will matter if your son speaks mandarin), Tsinghua is the best pick. The university still has isolated foreign dormitories and a cloistered social atmosphere however, so it isn't the best place for language students to go if they want to interact with lots of Chinese students (Beida is fantastic for this). If you son isn't tied to Beijing he can always go somewhere like Haerbin (very good accent) where he will have less contact with foreigners regardless.

And once he is in China it should be easy enough to switch between schools as long as he isn't in a degree program.

[jaydub]

Disclaimer: I am currently studying at Beiwai (Beijing Foreign Studies University). Beiwai has a seperate foreign students program but the university itself is a regular chinese university chinese students studying all sorts of foreign languages so there are plenty of chances to interact with the locals both in the school and the surrounding areas.

Renda (Renmin University) has a considerably smaller foreign student population so that might be preferable but I don't know much about their program. Both schools are relatively close to each other so your son can visit both to meet other students.

As stated before BLCU has the reputation of being foreigner heavy without much interaction between the local chinese students and the foreign students.

[divirtual]

Gato, thanks for the suggestion, but my friend went to study in China after he had completed an undergraduate degree (as well as some years of work experience). He applied through the Chinese consultate in Toronto, and probably got better support through their education arm than I've been receiving. (The current staff just point to the web site).

My friend therefore applied independently, but the undergrad degree means that he claim an affiliation to a university.

In theory, we have some family ties -- my father moved to Canada from Toisan when he was 16 -- but invoking families ties doesn't necessarily come without some reciprocation expected.

My brother-in-law is actually currently working in Beijing, but is originally from Hong Kong, and currently lives in the U.S. I asked him to look into what it mean to be a guarantor.

The response was that the average Chinese citizen doesn't have that much exposure to the outside world, and thus would need considerable motivation to act as a guarantor. Our family tends to be globe-trotting, but that's not the case for the general populace (either here or there).

[divirtual]

Trevelyan, thanks for the input.

I have to say that the information on Tsinghua makes it seem less appealing for Chinese language study, although its long term reputation seems to ring in the ears of older Chinese immigrants (e.g. my father, and people his age). In the end, the choice is my son's, but I'm doing the extra legwork in the hope of making sure he doesn't misunderstand his options.

There's an application form on the web for Tsinghua that has a field "Recommend by". I've sent an e-mail to the address on the form asking about what is required, so maybe it is a barrier to entry, and maybe it isn't. I'll post more when/if I hear anything back.

[divirtual]

Taking the bull by the horns, I e-mailed the contact e-mail from the Renmin application form. I asked ...

On your application form posted on the Internet, there is a "Recommending Person or Unit" field. Is this absolutely required? Who should this be? Does it have to be a Chinese citizen? Would someone in Canada be appropriate as a recommender?

... and within 9 hours -- e-mail works wonders across time zones! -- i got the reply:

A recommendation could be one of his high school teacher. Canadian or Chinese, either is OK. Kind regards!

So, I guess Renmin is on the list as a feasible place to apply.

I sent a similar not to Tsinghua, and will post results when/if I receive them.

[ChouDoufu]

People always seem to get really worried about these applications to study Chinese at Universities... There aren't really any barriers to entry except for money. (I know people at Beida who have failed Beida's test (for undergraduates and paid thousands of yuan to attend it).

And I think the Guarantor is just another term for a reccomendation from a teacher that your son is a good student, and you don't need someone on the mainland who can guarantee your son won't get into trouble.

good luck!

[divirtual]

ChouDoufu, thanks for the perspective. I'm ethnic Chinese, and try to be sensitive to not making assumptions; thus the concern. When the application requests a guarantor, I've not been in a position to question what it means.

It looks like we'll move forward on applications. The crunch challenge is admission dates. The Chinese application deadlines seem to fall after the acceptances from Canadian universities. (My son already has early admission letters from McMaster University and Ryerson University, and others are still pending). We may get into a "bird in the hand, two in the bush" scenario, depending on how fast the Chinese universities respond.

[gorae]

ChouDoufu, thanks for the perspective. I am *not* ethnic Chinese and yet I try to be sensitive and not make assumptions. My application to BLCU requests a guarantor and although I am not in a position to question what it means, I do value common sense advice. That is what you have provided.

Mahalo Nui Loa

[divirtual]

I received this response from Tsinghua University this morning.

The "recommended by" field is not absolutely required. You don't need fill in it if you have no any recommender.

Sincerely,

2005-3-28

Foreign Student Affairs Office

Tsinghua University

So, I guess things that I was reading in the application processes about not submitting incomplete applications are not enforced.

(Maybe I'm still stinging from the personal experience of applying to North American school, some years ago, where they require significant essays, and then have an in-person interview process by an alumnus/alumna that lives near you!)

[Dan Bang]

Would any of you please be so kind to direct me to websites (or something else) where I can find the prices for Tsinghua, Beida, Beijing Foreign Studies and Renmin University (is that the same as Beijing University?)...? I'm at the moment going to study at BLCU from this friday, and I'll try to post my experiences there as soon as they have taken some sort of shape - hoping that it could be any help to people being confused about where to go...

Thanks in advance!

[divirtual]

Dan Bang,

I don't know how accurate it is, but I'm relying on the intelligence from AccessMandarin. At the bottom of their costs page at http://www.accessmandarin.com/costs.html , there's a link to a budget for BCLU http://www.accessmandarin.com/blcu_costs.html .

I assume that is correct to an order of magnitude, and won't be counting dimes and nickels.

Renmin University is not the same as Peking University (Beida).