Need some feedback on my tone pairs.

[Zorlee]

Hi.
I'm a complete beginner in Mandarin Chinese. I started two days ago with the FSI resource module on pronunciation and romanization and would like some feedback on my tones. I haven't studied the "soundless" tone yet, so I know I messed that up, but if you guys could give me a comment or two on my tones, that would be really appreciated:

http://chirb.it/hgO12A

I had my first lesson today via Skype and will work with a teacher 4-5 times a week in the beginning to nail proper tones and pronunciation from the start. Since I'm a musician I really struggle with the fact that my teacher's voice is higher than mine (She's a woman, I'm a man) - I can't help but to think of the chinese tones as musical tones in a scale, and that just messes with my head - Her high tone is not a D#, like my high tone usually is.
Oh well...

Thank you guys very much for your help

Z

[muyongshi]

Since I'm a musician I really struggle with the fact that my teacher's voice is higher than mine (She's a woman, I'm a man) - I can't help but to think of the chinese tones as musical tones in a scale, and that just messes with my head - Her high tone is not a D#, like my high tone usually is.

Z

I had this problem when I first started. I even dropped out of a class because it was so hard to imitate my teacher.

Try thinking of using harmony or transposition in order to first overcome your brain block. In the long run though what really helped was imitating many different people until I was comfortable with my own voice. So find lots of resources that are multiple people speaking and doing pronunciation drills and that will help you (hopefully) overcome the initial difficulty that you are facing.

[Demonic_Duck]

Interesting, I always assumed having a musical background helped. Maybe having a somewhat musical background is what helps - I learned the violin as a kid, and dabbled with various other instruments, but never got all that far with any of them. On the other hand, I consider myself to have a decent "feel" for music, and also for Chinese tones. Having said that, perhaps it's specifically having perfect pitch that's hindering you (if you do indeed have perfect pitch).

 

On the whole, your tones sound pretty good in this drill. Remember though, most 3rd tones do not actually rise, they merely start low and fall lower. It's only in isolation, or sometimes at the end of sentences (depends on the speaker, I believe), that they rise. Also, two third tones in a row become 2-3 (I can't make out all that much of a distinction between the two in your 马马 example).

[OneEye]

I always assumed having a musical background helped. Maybe having a somewhat musical background is what helps

 

I was a professional musician while in college, and semi-professional for a few years after. I majored in music and took WAY more ear training than I was required to. Then later I got into a lot of really ear-stretching world music and did a lot of work with music production, recording, synthesis, etc., and I wrote and performed some pretty experimental stuff, all of which required me to listen very intently and in a very different way than most people, even musicians, listen to music. Most people don't have any concept of what this kind of ear training does for you, in much the same way (I imagine) that cultures with no writing or concept of the possibility of such a thing can't fathom what writing makes possible (see Walter Ong, Orality and Literacy if you're interested). I don't really do any of that any more, except for just listening to music, but I can say without any ego that when I was at my best, my ears were sharper than the vast majority of people's, even better than most trained musicians, and that they're still pretty good.

 

That background has been an enormous help in learning languages, because I'm able to internalize the rhythms, intonations, and sounds of a language quickly. But when I first start a language, I have the same problem with pitch. I use a lot of chorusing to work on pronunciation, and it's only natural for me to want to match the pitch of the person on the recording. You just have to pick a pitch that's comfortable for you and think of yourself as transposing. Listen to some John Tavener (or anyone else who uses a lot of chromatic parallelism), it helps. You'll eventually, as muyongshi said, become comfortable with your own voice.

 

I have a friend who has a "somewhat musical background" (he plays guitar, used to be in a band, etc.) whose tones are all over the place despite being very advanced in Chinese (having now published several academic papers in Chinese), and can't carry a tune in a bucket when we go to KTV. He's learning Japanese and while his pronunciation of the individual sounds is reasonably good, his rhythm and intonation is all over the place. When I've told people that my musical background helps, they say "But ******'s tones are bad, and he used to be in a band." Not. The. #$@&%*!. Same.

 

But you also have to break yourself of the habit of thinking of tones in terms of pitch. Your first tone won't be a D# in every situation. Native speakers, when reading a sentence with a lot of first tones scattered throughout, have a tendency to say each one slightly lower (slightly) than the last, all other things being equal (not accounting for emphasis on certain words, etc.). Use your musical training and apply it to absorbing the sound of the language by mimicking native speakers (Idahosa Ness, also a musician, has some great stuff on this). Adapting your knowledge is crucial. Speech rhythms aren't metrical like music is, for instance, so you'll have to learn to listen in a different way.

 

Good luck!

[Zorlee]

Thank you guys very much for your help!
Yes, I really feel the need for adapting my knowledge, but I'm actually starting to get more comfortable with my own voice. Of course, sometimes I will still mimic the native completely (like pitch and all), but a lot of the time I'm able to find my own tones. Thinking of harmony/transposition in the beginning really helped, so thank you muyongshi I'm starting to get it without that crutch now, but it's still hard at times.

[muyongshi]

You bet.