Thinking about tones when you speak.....

[ihoop]

Hey all,

 

I have been self-studying mandarin for a bit over a year now.  I am almost finished with the FSI course and am quite happy with the progress I have made, but one thing is still bugging me a lot.

 

Whenever I am speaking Chinese I find myself 'seeing" tones and pinyin in my head.  Sometimes this really messes up my speaking, I feel like as long as I am still thinking about tones and pinyin (during conversation)  my Chinese will never sound very fluent.  Has anyone else encountered this problem?  What, if anything, did you do to get around it?

 

 I find that the phrases and words that I am able to say fluently are things that I have heard so many times that I don't have to think about tones or pronunciation.  So, I was thinking that the only way to really learn to speak fluent Chinese would be to create an "aural" memory of everything that you want to produce.....Meaning, you just think about the way a word/phrase "sounds" , and that is it.....No pinyin, no tones.

 

This, however, brings up another problem.  How is one supposed to study Chinese in an efficient way without using tones or pinyin?

 

I am sure some of the other members on this forum have had similar thoughts on encountered similar problems.  If anyone can give any advice I would greatly appreciate it!

 

Thanks for reading

 

-Ian

[Ruben von Zwack]

I guess that sort of memory is the way kids (native speakers) learn.

I find TV series a good way of "studying" relying on sound only. Sometimes I just watch for leisure, but most times I go back at sections that I found useful and capture the audio, listen closely again (with many players you can slow down the speed) and even make my own mp3s. At the end of the mp3 I'll leave some seconds "blank" so I can repeat aloud*. Those mp3s I use for practice while I ride the bike to work.

*(Audacity, a freeware, lets you do that. If you are interested, you can find instructions on audacity on the website hackingchinese)

What I found really fascinating: often, when I hear spoken language in natural speed, it seems like people are neglecting the tones. But when I listen slowed-down, voila the tones are clearly there!

[imron]

I feel like as long as I am still thinking about tones and pinyin (during conversation) my Chinese will never sound very fluent. Has anyone else encountered this problem? What, if anything, did you do to get around it?

I think this is basically correct. Native speakers don't think about tones when they are speaking, they just think of the word and say that.

The difference is, for them, the tone is an intrinsic part of the sound and can't be separated from it. So, don't think of a syllable as pronunciation + tone, you should think of it as a whole unit, with differences in tone being as distinct as differences in vowels e.g. 妈 and 马 should sound as different to you as man and men.

It may take some practising and careful listening before you are able to do this, especially early on, but it is a very worthwhile thing to be able to do.

The utility of pinyin is that it can then be used to represent those sounds, which is useful when you come across characters you don't know how to pronounce, because if you've learnt pinyin properly, you'll be able to reproduce that sound accurately.

In your mind you should then try to remember that correct sound rather than the pinyin. You'll always be able to work backwards and get the pinyin from the sound should you ever be in a position where you need to.

Basically, use pinyin as a guide, but focus more on the actual sound that you create when putting that pinyin together.

[tysond]

Are you using characters when reading?

Are you listening to a lot of Chinese?

Are you listening to a lot of Chinese and copying the sounds, comparing what you say?

Are you reading characters out loud and being corrected?  Or comparing with a recording by a native speaker?

 

These things seem to help strengthen aural memory.

[Zach_Attack]

The more you immerse yourself in the culture the more it comes naturally it will come. Also if you have a good friend or language partner that will actually tell you that your tones are off.

[abcdefg]

#5 --

Also if you have a good friend or language partner that will actually tell you that your tones are off.

 

Agree this is valuable, but it is extremely hard to find. Politeness and fatigue get in the way. After correcting you 12 times in the first 20 minutes, most people just give up on the project no matter how strongly you have urged them to be strict with you regarding pronunciation.

 

In daily life, I rely heavily on that puzzled look on the other person's face when I say something with wrong tones. It's like saying a totally wrong word. Surprise, surprise, like Imron said, it *is* a totally wrong word. It's not "the right word with wrong tones." Saying 马 with the wrong tone is just as wrong as saying the word for table or window or noodle soup instead of the word for horse. 

 

"Close" only counts with hand grenades, to borrow a phrase from my remote military days.

[xuefang]

You've got a lot of good advice above already, but I wanted to share my thoughts as well.

 

When learning vocabulary, for example from your textbook, remember to listen to the mp3 as much as you can. (And don't buy books without audio on some form or another.) Look at the vocab list, listen to the audio and repeat. Do the same for the texts as well. By listening as much as you can, you will get this kind of aural memory where you just know how the word is supposed to sound like. It doesn't happen in on day, but little by little.

 

You can also try speaking the words outloud which you are writing. When you write a character or a word, say it out loud at the same time. This helped me in the beginning to remember the pronunciation in a more natural way.

 

I think you should use pinyin as your guide, as said already, but remember that listening is the foundation of good pronunciation. Listen to podcasts, easy TV shows meant for foreigners (like Happy Chinese) and speak out loud.

[老马萍]

 

Agree this is valuable, but it is extremely hard to find. Politeness and fatigue get in the way. After correcting you 12 times in the first 20 minutes, most people just give up on the project no matter how strongly you have urged them to be strict with you regarding pronunciation.

 

 This is so true.  I have several Chinese friends to practice with and no matter how often I tell them to correct my pronunciation, they soon slack off saying they know what I mean. 

 

For those that watch movies and tv, how do you maintain focus and pay attention when you don't completely understand what is being said??

[imron]

By choosing a TV show movie that has subtitles/transcripts and then drilling smaller parts over and over until you do understand what is being said, and then as your level gradually improves over time, increasing the length of the segments.

 

Doing half and hour to an hour of that daily over the course of about 6 months should do wonders for your comprehension.

[simplet]

I might be crazy here, but isn't that a good thing? If you just finished the fsi program, I don't imagine you're already very fluent. I agree that having the pinyin in your head at all time might not be great, but if the tone is burned inside your mind that's probably very good for you. Of course at first you might speak slowly and awkwardky, but at least you'll speak chinese awkwardly, you won't be fluent in some made-up language. Fluency will come later.

[OneEye]

By choosing a TV show movie that has subtitles/transcripts and then drilling smaller parts over and over until you do understand what is being said, and then as your level gradually improves over time, increasing the length of the segments.

 

Doing half and hour to an hour of that daily over the course of about 6 months should do wonders for your comprehension.

 

I can vouch for this. I did it with movies and TV shows for a while, and it might have been the best thing I've ever done. You can also shadow parts of the dialogue to work on pronunciation and intonation, and you'll likely end up making a good chunk of it part of your active vocabulary. It may not be much fun, but it is extremely effective.

[imron]

Yep.  I always had a little bit of disdain for this kind of 'dumb' learning - until I tried it and found it worked really well.

[老马萍]

I really appreciate all the comments regarding "dumb listening" to movies, etc as a way to improve comprehension.  I have been studying for 4 years with an excellent tutor and I can read and write at an intermediate level.  But I am discouraged about my speaking and especially my listening comprehension.  I was recently in China for a few weeks with a Chinese friend.  She was surprised at how little I seemed to understand given that the context of the comments was clear, e.g. a shop, restaurant, etc. 

 

My tutor recently moved and I don't know whether to find another or practice on my own with help from my Chinese friends.  The reason I can read and write as well as I can is because twice a week I had to produce homework for her review.  As a beginner, of course the lessons focused on grammar and vocab which meant mostly reading and writing.  We finished the entire Integrated Chinese series over 4 years and started the Princeton series.  Of course, there is audio for the text but I mostly rely on my ability to read it.  I feel I must change my emphasis from reading to listening or I'll never improve.  For the year, my tutor spoke almost entirely Chinese and I did the best I could to understand.  When I was completely lost, I'd call timeout. 

 

Excuse the length of this but I'm confused about what to do.  I wonder if I have the self-discipline to work without the pressure of  completing assignments.  I know you can't answer that, but do you guys think I should forget about finding a new tutor and concentrate on listening to stuff with no text?  All opinions gratefully accepted!

[roddy]

Why not do both. Find some audio or video you're interested in - if you're a news junkie, the news, if you're a film buff, a film, if you're a sports fan......etc. Work through it, and use your tutor to troubleshoot difficult bits and let you practice the new vocab / grammar you're picking up. 

 

It sounds like you've got a pretty solid basis, and while the next few months might be at points discouraging and painful*, if you put the hours in I can't see why you won't come out the other end with much improved skills.

 

*Oh, you wanted an easy language? Try Italian, down the hall...

[abcdefg]

...but do you guys think I should forget about finding a new tutor and concentrate on listening to stuff with no text?

 

The departure of your prior tutor presents an opportunity for change. It's often difficult to change the thrust of lessons that are already underway. It's difficult to get a tutor to "change gears."

 

I think you should find a new tutor to supplement your solo endeavors, but make it clear from the outset that your primary goal now is improving your conversation. The tutor works for you, on your dime; you don't work for her. You need to clearly tell her what services you want to purchase during the time you are together.

 

Homework now can include things like going out and having a conversation with a friend on a specific assigned topic. You can rehearse with the tutor before the first attempt. Then return and talk it over with your tutor at the next meeting and get suggestions on how to make it work more smoothly when you discuss the very same topic with a different friend as a follow up.

 

As you get to know your new tutor better, you can delegate more of the content decisions to her, assuming that you trust her judgement. By then she will also know your strengths and weaknesses better, so her suggestions as to what you need to study hardest will be more valuable than they were at first.

 

[老马萍]

Great suggestions, thanks guys.  I think you're right about the opportunity to go in another direction with a new tutor.  As luck would have it, I just met with someone today who might be a good fit.  I told her I need more emphasis on conversation -- both speaking and listening -- and she has some good ideas, not involving a textbook, more along the lines of what both Roddy and abcdefg proposed.  I'm feeling better already:)

[tysond]

I do exactly what abcdefg suggests with lessons.  I had to get the house painted, so I practiced that conversation with my teacher, then had the conversation with the painters and then reviewed the conversation with my teacher.  All the time my teacher is (at my request) correcting sentences, pronunciation, and always speaks Chinese.  Every lesson starts with me telling a story about what I did lately, or plan to do, and improving on that story (better grammar, more interesting words, more details). 

 

For listening - you really need to train your ear, which means hours of exposure.  I would aim for at least 1-2 hours a day (passively + actively).  Listen to Chinese music, watch movies, watch TV, listen to podcasts, watch youtube videos of chat shows or people playing video games in Chinese.   Close your eyes and try to follow just the audio sometimes.  The more you attempt to turn noise into information, the better you get at it, then it starts to become automatic.  

 

And I must note - it's much harder to listen and speak well in China, especially if you are just visiting, in a naive environment.  There are many small things (erhua, regional accents, unfamiliar expressions, cultural differences) that mean even a simple exchange can end up in unfamiliar territory.  If you improve your listening skill you'll have more ability to hear what they are saying (even if it is unfamiliar) and think about it, and then have responses ready. 

[老马萍]

Tysond -- what kind of prep do you do for your meeting with the tutor?  Do you write out what you want to say and practice before you meet? What about vocabulary -- do you make a point to look up new words to use?  My default is always write something because I have time to think about it and it's something I know I can be successful doing.  But I know you're right, I just have to invest the  time listening and not quit after 20 minutes from frustration.  I have no delusions about becoming really fluent living here in the states but I'm determined to improve.

[tysond]

I don't really do a lot special -- for the painting example, I looked up the words for painting (looked at difference between artistic painting and wall painting), tried to figure out what the job was called (it's 瓦匠 apparently), words for paint, repairs, wear-and-tear, deposit, ceiling, light fitting, etc.  I wrote down a few key terms for reference or if I couldn't find something just made a note to ask about it.    I don't want to waste teacher's time on stuff I can look up very easily in the 30 minutes before the session.

 

Or it's a series of experiences that are related session by session - E.g. next week is a Halloween party, buying a mask online, explaining the character and the movie he's from, paying customs duty and dealing with delivery guys and then going to the party - the teacher hears about each of these events as I plan them -- and then afterwards you have a whole vocabulary to tell the story with. 

 

Then I just role play or tell stories with the teacher, ask specifically if there are other ways to say things. 

 

Since I am in China I can re-use my Halloween story several times until I run out of Chinese friends/colleagues.   But if you are outside, I'd recommend discussing things you can revisit - like the plots of movies you watched in Chinese.  Having a deep discussion around Batman or the new Journey to the West film can solidify the words you will then be able to watch again in the film.  

 

Useful links on immersion outside China:

 

http://www.hackingchinese.com/immersion-at-home-or-why-you-dont-have-to-go-abroad/

http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/about

 

Also, listening drills and shadowing are two techniques that will probably help you a lot (no Chinese people required).  

Imron has explained the techniques for drills here:

 

http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/34107-what-level-of-chinese-can-you-achieve-outside-of-china/page-4#comment-255527

[ihoop]

Hi all,

 

I just wanted to say thanks for the responses.  I have been quite busy lately so I have not had a chance to post.  Anyway, thanks for all the insightful comments about tones!  I will try to apply some of the advice I have received here to my own Chinese studies.

 

All the best!