The education system in Hong Kong

[wushijiao]

I'm a bit curious about which language the education system in Hong Kong uses (or used) as its medium of instruction. I assume it was Cantonese. Was there also quite a bit of English? Is there now a general trend to include more putonghua?

I just read this in the SCMP:

In the five-year study, two classes of primary pupils learnt Chinese in Putonghua and Cantonese respectively from the same teacher. It was found that the Putonghua group outperformed the Cantonese group in vocabulary, comprehension, writing, listening and speaking.

Nelson Lau Chi-keung, head of the Subsidised Primary Schools Council, said the issue of Putonghua as an option for medium of instruction should have been discussed in the consultation paper.

I also wonder if anybody knows anything about that study or similar studies.

[skylee]

As far as I know, the medium of instruction in most schools is Cantonese. English and Putonghua are taught as two of the subjects. However, about a hundred local schools and most international schools teach in English. And a few local schools have a long history of teaching in Mandarin.

[Vardainzilwen]

Also since HK has become an SAR, Mandarin is now taught as a subject (as opposed to a language to be used in Chinese lessons) in most primary schools starting from year 1.

I was talking to my friend about this the other day and we came up with the conclusion that it'd probably be best if all the students were taught Chinese in Mandarin right from the beginning, while Cantonese, being the dialect of Canton, can still be spoken. Afterall,

It was found that the Putonghua group outperformed the Cantonese group in vocabulary, comprehension, writing, listening and speaking.

Oh and it'd be great if simplified characters replaced traditional ones, merely because languages should take the simpler forms when they're available?

Just a thought. Any opinions?

Varda xxx

[gato]

A lot of people still prefer the traditional characters out of habit or because they feel they look prettier. See this discussion http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=4434

[Vardainzilwen]

I see. Thanks for the link! Yeh this is a commonly debated topic. I myself write with traditional characters too, unless the reader prefers the simplified ones. *shrugs* I just thought that it would be a nice idea to unify the language in writing.

It is actually bothering me how some young people I know write with both traditional and simplified characters (in one piece of writing) because when they forget certain traditional characters they just use the simplified ones as substitutes, and vice versa. I guess there's nothing really wrong with that providing that the reader understands both (if not, they can usually guess by the context anyway). It's just annoying lol I don't like people mixing the two things up. Oh but the worst has to be mixing two languages up merely because they have forgotten parts of one.

[gato]

Here's a little more on that Mandarin vs. Cantonese instruction study.

http://www.takungpao.com/news/2005-3-13/GW-376024.htm

香港小學中國語文教育研究學會會長劉筱玲發表報告指出，一九九九年起邀六間小學逾千名學生進行研究，各由一名教師同時用普通話及粵語教授兩班學生中文，進行比較。發現低年級成績較差的學生接受普通話授課後，成績進步尤為顯著。

她並邀請語言教育學專家為學生測試，發現以普通話上中文課的學生，在語言流暢感及分辨能力上，較粵語班高出三至五倍，反映學生在詞彙與句式積累上較優勝。

普通話班在憑藉語感的辨誤能力、對語言作品閱讀與感受的敏銳性，都較粵語班強二倍，在中文理解力上更高出四倍。

她指出，小學若要用普通話教中文，大約需要四至五年時間準備，讓教師有信心用普通話授課，初期可混雜普通話及粵語授課，讓教師用粵語解釋較深澀的詞語。

[Vardainzilwen]

Thanks! The change sounds to me like it may have a positive impact! It hasn't been made into a resolution to be formally debated yet though, has it? I wonder why. Fear of the unfamiliar?

[wushijiao]

Why did they get better results for using putonghua? I know nothing about Cantonese, but I don't see why it wouldn't be equally effective as a teaching medium.

It seems like Hong Kong is really in a tough situation language-wise. There are good arguments for teaching in all three languages

Cantonese- Clearly teaching in Cantonese would ensure that the language would have a higher social status and would not be considered a gutter dialect, like Wu. Also, there might be many qualified teachers in, say, math would wouldn't have the putonghua or English skills to teach in those.

Putonghua- It's the language of the mainland and, to some degree, the language of the future. I'm sure there is a wide variety of good, cheap textbooks in putonghua.

English- The world's lingua franca.

I read a critique a long time ago by a man who felt that the introduction of putonghua was a huge mistake. According to this line of arguement, Hong Kong's niche was being able to provide complex, value-added financial services in English to the world community. The mainland was a backward inefficent place, and Hong Kong provided the cross-cultural services for banks and multinationals. If this is true, then putting in Hong Kong's lot with putonghua might decrease its competitive advantage and allow cities like Shanghai to take over its former role. The man argued that English and Cantonese should be the main mediums of communications. Personally, I don't really know enough about either economics or Hong Kong to know the answer. I guess some Hong Kongers proabably feel that deeper integration with the mainland is the most profitable way to go. I don't know.

Thoughts?

[gato]

Why did they get better results for using putonghua? I know nothing about Cantonese, but I don't see why it wouldn't be equally effective as a teaching medium.

Maybe it's because modern Chinese prose form is based on Mandarin grammar and vocabulary. Cantonese speakers have to learn Mandarin in order to write in modern Chinese (白话).

According to this line of arguement, Hong Kong's niche was being able to provide complex, value-added financial services in English to the world community. The mainland was a backward inefficent place, and Hong Kong provided the cross-cultural services for banks and multinationals. If this is true, then putting in Hong Kong's lot with putonghua might decrease its competitive advantage and allow cities like Shanghai to take over its former role. The man argued that English and Cantonese should be the main mediums of communications.

Sounds like an irrational defense of Cantonese to me.

It seems that he's saying, English proficiency, not Cantonese, is the basis of HK's competitive advantage. Then why would adding Mandarin to the mix detract from that advantage so long as people put in the same amount of effort into learning English?

If he's saying political transparency, efficiency, and a good judicial system is the basis of HK's competitive advantage, then what does learning Mandarin have to do with all that?

Shanghai has risen in the world because of economic reforms have allow capitalism to thrive in China, at least more so than any time in the past. If HKers don't learn Mandarin and become therefore less able to communicate with the rest of China, they will only diminish their own economic relevance as China become more of a capitalist country and a world economic power.

It's the reason why people in Singapore are learning Mandarin as their second or third language even though their families may originally have spoken a different Chinese dialect. They want to be able to plug into the Chinese pole of this multi-polar economic universe.

[wushijiao]

The 白话 reason makes sense. I admit that the line of reasoning has flaws, and I'm probably not doing justice to the person who laid it out. I think people might ask: what is the long-run role Hong Kong is going to play in China, Asia and the international arena? There's no doubt that China wants increased integration with the Pearl River delta and the mainland in general. What to do about the "vision thing"?

If he's saying political transparency, efficiency, and a good judicial system is the basis of HK's competitive advantage, then what does learning Mandarin have to do with all that?

Well, at more advanced levels, I don't think it's possible for the masses to be completely fluent in three languages. I think it's possible to have a whole population able to speak basic things in three, but when once one starts getting into more complex vocabulary whether in business, biology, physics, math or whatever, I doubt that it's possible for the students to successfully learn jargon in all three, although it would be ideal.

I suppose for huge portions of China this is already the case. Putonghua and English have official status, while dialects have none. Then people will naturally use English and Putonghua in official situations like business, weddings, seminars and politics because they are socially valued. From what I've read about the experiences of native well-educated Wu speakers, sometimes when thinking about complex subjects, their stream of consciousness can only flow in Putonghua. This means that Putonghua must be used in more formal or complex reasons.

In Hong Kong's case, I think favoring Putonghua and Mandarin over Cantonese will lead to the eventual dominance of those two in all formal occasions the long-run (50-100 years). So, it seems to me, chosing a language medium requires thought about many factors- the long-run vision of the city, to what degree should Cantonese be perserved, what is most effective and practical for the children.

Anyway, I am just wondering about some of these issues. I'm not saying I have the answers by any means. Thoughts?

[gato]

I suppose for huge portions of China this is already the case. Putonghua and English have official status, while dialects have none. Then people will naturally use English and Putonghua in official situations like business, weddings, seminars and politics because they are socially valued. From what I've read about the experiences of native well-educated Wu speakers, sometimes when thinking about complex subjects, their stream of consciousness can only flow in Putonghua. This means that Putonghua must be used in more formal or complex reasons.

Part of that could be because there's not a Wu phrase for what they are thinking of. When Buddhism came to China, many Hindu/Buddhist philosophical terms (in addition to personal names) had to be transliterated into Chinese. Nowadays you have to transliterate and create new Chinese words for many other things. It's possible that the Wu vocabulary growing up to meet the new demands in China, and Wu speakers therefore have to cope by pronoucing Wu words with Mandarin accents.

That's pretty much how my Shanghainese is. Though I grew up speaking Shanghainese, I've forgotten many common words due to lack of use (I'm in a mixed family and our common language is Mandarin). Now when I try to speak it, I end up speaking Mandarin with a Shanghainese pronounciation.

HK Cantonese probably has a much richer vocabulary because it's the sole language of many HKers and they therefore have the incentive to develop it. Maybe you're aware that it's common to use Cantonese (as opposed to Mandarin) when writing in HK. Many HK newspaper's entertainment section are abound in Cantonese phrases. They even have different characters, which most mainlanders cannot read them. You won't see that happening in the mainland because of the Communist party and economic incentives both suggest that Mandarin is the way to go.

[Dav-X]

Sounds like an irrational defense of Cantonese to me.

Be aware that this commonly-head defense is not just for language, but it shows the resistance to (mainland) chinese culture. Seems that hongkongers tend to think that the convergence of hongkong and mainland china will mean corruption, crony capitalism, abuse of juridication and depotism, etc.

Anyway, these resistances have some points, but I'd agree with gato that putonghua should be taught and learnt in hongkong and it'll help increase, not undermine, the competitiveness.

[Ian_Lee]

Actually the introduction of Cantonese as a teaching medium in Hong Kong is a very recent phenomenon.

The policy only started after HK became a SAR in '97.

When Tung Chee Hwa came to office, he had lots of grand schemes. One of them is "Teaching by mother tongue" -- which means Cantonese as the main medium of teaching.

When it was implemented in '98-'99, a lot of schools as well as parents resented to the switch since most schools used English as the medium of instruction.

I was educated in HK in '60s -- '70s and I attended one of the few schools that used Mandarin for teaching of Chinese language and history while other subjects were all taught in English.

The problem I had with that teacher whom used Mandarin was that he only knew Mandarin. He was a refugee from Zhejiang who spoke Mandarin with heavy accent and couldn't speak Cantonese even he had been in the colony for over 15 years.

Actually the problem persists until today in HK -- the teachers that are able to speak good Mandarin may not be able to speak fluent Cantonese while those teachers that are locally born and able to speak Cantonese may not be able to speak perfect Mandarin.

So how can students understand if the teachers cannot handle both languages?

Of course, there are many people in HK who are able to speak both languages fluently. But probably most of them are more interested in China trade (though frankly teachers got good pay in HK).

Actually there is remedy like recruitment of teachers from Guangzhou who can speak both languages fluently.

But in the days of teachers facing less demand (many newly constructed schools are closed due to insufficient students), there will be great resistance to such recruitment from the local teacher groups.

[skylee]

Actually the introduction of Cantonese as a teaching medium in Hong Kong is a very recent phenomenon.

The policy only started after HK became a SAR in '97.

All the schools I went to taught in Cantonese, including CUHK. But I think in CUHK, one would get to develop the ability to listen to and speak in Mandarin and English, as the lecturers/professors there were from 大江南北. I once was taught by one from Taiwan who could not finish a sentence without using Cantonese AND Mandarin AND English. And one also got used to reading simplified characters because of the textbooks used.

[Vardainzilwen]

If he's saying political transparency, efficiency, and a good judicial system is the basis of HK's competitive advantage, then what does learning Mandarin have to do with all that?

Hear hear!

I think the reason why Mandarin speakers tend to be better in Chinese (writing, understanding etc) than Cantonese speakers is that when they talk, assuming that they do not use a lot of slangs, they are basically practising all sorts of sentence constructions that one would use in writing. Similarly when they listen to other Mandarin speakers talk, they are getting more and more familiar with the language in its more eloquent form, rather than the 口语, as in the case with Cantonese speakers.

I'm not saying that there's no 口语 in Mandarin because there is. However if you compare the spoken Cantonese with the written, you'll find more difference between them than the difference between spoken Mandarin and its written form.

[wushijiao]

think the reason why Mandarin speakers tend to be better in Chinese (writing, understanding etc) than Cantonese speakers is that when they talk, assuming that they do not use a lot of slangs, they are basically practising all sorts of sentence constructions that one would use in writing. Similarly when they listen to other Mandarin speakers talk, they are getting more and more familiar with the language in its more eloquent form, rather than the 口语, as in the case with Cantonese speakers.

Interesting info Vardaninzilwen! An ignorant question: why don't people who speak Cantonese develop a more official and academic form of the written language? I have read that the Cantonese written form is mainly popular in tabloids and humorous magazines, but has it entered more weighty texts? I mean why wouldn't Cantonese would-be James Joyce's write in Cantonese? I realize these probably sound like stupid questions for those in the know.

[Quest]

why don't people who speak Cantonese develop a more official and academic form of the written language?

The reasons are that firstly, litarary or formal Cantonese is actually classical Chinese, and it already exists and is deemed out of date. Secondly, despite all the differences, most Cantonese sentences can be mapped directly into Mandarin by changing just a few words, so it's really hard to draw a line between written Cantonese and written Mandarin. One can of course, change all the 怎s to 点s, and all the 哪s to 边s, but why bother since that would cause more problems than it would solve.

I tend to disagree with Vardainzilwen. I don't think educated Cantonese read or write any worse than educated Mandarin speakers. You can easily find Cantonese writers in many of the 作文精选 books or newspaper 文集 columns. Many of my old Cantonese schoolmates in Guangzhou competed nationally in 征文 and 作文 competitons and won prizes. Of course, since Mandarin speakers far outnumber Cantonese speakers, they might have an absolute number advantage.

[bhchao]

Actually the problem persists until today in HK -- the teachers that are able to speak good Mandarin may not be able to speak fluent Cantonese while those teachers that are locally born and able to speak Cantonese may not be able to speak perfect Mandarin.

There is a rhyme that native Mandarin speakers use:

天不怕, 地不怕, 只怕廣東人說普通話!

Likewise, Cantonese speakers mock native Mandarin speakers :

天唔驚, 地唔驚, 只驚北方人講廣東話唔正!

[Ian_Lee]

Bhchao:

Actually Cantonese-accented Mandarin and Mandarin-accented Cantonese are widely accepted nowadays.

Just look at the popularity of Andy Lau's Mandarin songs and Faye Wang's Cantopop.

[Ncao]

Bhchao:

Actually Cantonese-accented Mandarin and Mandarin-accented Cantonese are widely accepted nowadays.

Just look at the popularity of Andy Lau's Mandarin songs and Faye Wang's Cantopop.

I think Faye Wang's Cantonese is pretty good,she doesn't have a heavy Mandarin accent.

I actually like Mandarin-accented Cantonese,but not the heavy accented kind like Shu Qi 舒琪.