CSC Scholarship - 2014 General Discussion

[haoyu]

PLEASE READ THIS AND
SEARCH THE THREAD
BEFORE POSTING!!!!

 

Edited in Admin note: This topic was started by our CSC Hero, Brian US. Brian has now moved back to the US and doesn't post so much, so I've given ownership to NEW CSC Hero, Haoyu. Thanks to both Brian and Haoyu, and also the much-missed CSC Goddess, extrapages. 
 
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We've decided to make a new thread for the next round of CSC scholarship applicants. The plan is to make a fresh one each year. So this one's for you 2014 kids.

Before we start: please check out the posts from the past - it's a lot of information to sift through but it will answer the majority of your questions. The 2013 archived thread may be found here with the discussion on last year's results found here.

This topic is for general CSC scholarship discussion. For specific questions/information go to the American/EU topic or the Other applicants topic for discussion on non US/EU applicants.
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The Basics

Website: http://en.csc.edu.cn/
Programs: http://www.csc.edu.cn/laihua/programsearchen.aspx (This is new and is an AMAZING feature. You can now search through all program details, but remember requirements may be different for each school/program)
 
General Information and Eligibility: http://en.csc.edu.cn...f3da38f99.shtml (READ THIS)
Application Forms: http://en.csc.edu.cn...lt.aspx?cid=277
Online Application (not really): http://laihua.csc.edu.cn
Not sure if the online application works, but fill it out anyway (search 2010 thread for comments)
List of Universities: http://en.csc.edu.cn...hua/Search.aspx

This thread is ONLY about the Chinese Government Scholarship - none of the others listed on the website. Here, we will discuss the steps of getting the Chinese Language scholarship. The process for those getting degrees is similar... you should be able to figure it out the small differences if that's what you're trying to do.

To apply, contact and send your application to a Chinese embassy/consulate located in your home country. For example, Australians must apply at a Chinese embassy in Australia, and Americans must apply at a Chinese embassy in America. People currently in China can also apply, but they still have to mail their applications to a Chinese embassy in their home country!

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What We Know

Very close to absolutely nothing. None of us know how this process works - and no one that is part of the process can tell us how it works. This is because even they don't know how it works. So just follow the rules. Trust me. Try calling the CSC people. I dare you.

Deadlines are mostly in April - the deadline is different for each country/region/state/province. I encourage people to post and share their respective deadlines for 2013.

The deadlines haven't been officially updated for 2013, yes something as basic as the deadline is unknown, but here is our best guess:

U.S.-April 30th 2013
Try to apply before March 15th
EU-April 30th 2013
Try to apply before March 31st
Canada-December 15th 2012
British Columbia-January 2013
Ottawa-December 20th, 2012
Australia-December 26th 2012
Philippines-April 30th 2013
Morocco-March 30th 2013

The EU has its own CSC Scholarship. There are 100 full one-year scholarships.

For everyone else, there are two types of scholarships: Full and Partial
The full scholarship covers tuition, books, shared dorm, insurance, a monthly stipend, and (maybe) airfare. Airfare is ONLY covered if your specific country has this included in their agreement with China - it is limited to developing nations.
For partial, you get to choose what you would like covered on the application.

For people that are only applying for Chinese Language (as opposed to a degree), you can choose between 1 or 2 years. For people who are pursuing a degree, you can request 1 or 2 years of Chinese Language study BEFORE taking your classes if you either can't speak Chinese or need it improved.

WE DO NOT KNOW THE CHANCES OF GETTING THIS SCHOLARSHIP FOR ANY COMBINATION OF THESE CHOICES. We don't know if we have a better chance of getting a partial or full scholarship, or if it's easier to get it if you request 1 or 2 years. Nor do we know how much your GPA matters, or if already having Chinese language skills hurts/helps you, or if having been to China before means you get extra points, or if having six toes will increase your chances. Whatever it is, we don't know. Quit asking. Please.

Programs generally start in September, but there are also a few that start in March.... and SUMMER CLASSES are NOT included in the scholarship.

If you already received the scholarship and wish to extend it you will need to apply again. First talk to your school or any contact to see what your options are.

This is where your application will be going:

Steps
1. You send your application to a third party representative of CSC (maybe your school).
2. The third party (OR you can apply directly) sends application to your native country's China Embassy.
3. Your native country's China Embassy sends your application to the Beijing CSC office.
4. The Beijing CSC office sends your application to your selected schools.
5. If and when a school accepts you, your acceptance is sent to the Beijing CSC office.
6. The Beijing CSC office sends your acceptance to your native country's China Embassy.
7. The China Embassy sends your acceptance and all needed documentation to you.

At any step of this process your application may be rejected. Again we don't know why, how, or when the decision is made. In the end, the school gets a final say on whether you receive the scholarship or not.

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The Application

Here is the application I submitted last year and was awarded the scholarship:

http://i1105.photobu...pplication1.jpg
http://i1105.photobu...pplication2.jpg
http://i1105.photobu...pplication3.jpg

1. Proposed Study in China: Chinese Language Student
2. Duration of the Major Study: For people learning Chinese - you can study for either one or two years, starting in September.
3. Study or Research Plan: In the previous years, they required all applicants to write something like a personal statement that was no less than 400 words (THIS IS STILL TRUE FOR EU APPLICANTS and probably for "degree" applicants), but now, you can just write in a few sentences that you would like to learn Chinese. Feel free to write a full "study plan" if you'd like - check out the archived thread for more information. Member Kdavid has provided us with his study plan for a successful application that you may use as a reference. The attachment is at the end of the post.
4. Organization/Person Recommending You: I say go for anything that sounds official: Use your university, your professor, the company you work for, this forum, whatever.
5. The Guarantor: Anyone you know in China - CSC will not call or contact them. You can make this part up if you want. For people who want a real person, extrapages has volunteered to be your guarantor. Maybe. If you participate in this thread. She is not a fan of giving her real name, address, and phone number to strangers. Seriously.
6. Letters of Recommendation: We have heard reports that letters of recommendations are NOT required for those studying Chinese and not pursuing a degree. This is also written on the website. Include them if you wish. Those who are pursuing a degree will need TWO letters of recommendation from professors/employers.
7. You need a notarized copy of your most recent transcript, and your high school diploma (for those who are still in university) or degree (if you already graduated from college). If it is not in English or Chinese, you need to get it translated into one of those two languages.
8. They want TWO copies of the application. We're not sure of that means the whole application (including any documents) or just the application form - so we recommend that you send two of everything.

Online Application

Here is a list of the known agency numbers. It is best to input the agency number of the embassy you are applying to, so U.S. applicants should input 8401 (number of the Chinese embassy in D.C.).

If you cannot find the agency number then try the number for your first pick university. This will automatically fill in that school as your first choice.

AGENCY CODES: Click to reveal

10006 - Beihang Univ. (BUAA)
10007 - Beijing Institute of Technology
10008 - Univ. of Science and Technology Beijing
10010 - Beijing Univ. of Chemical Tech.
10013 - Beijing Univ. of Posts and Telecommunications
10019 - China Agricultural Univ (CAU)
10022 - Beijing Forestry Univ.
10026 - Beijing University of Chinese Medicine
10027 - Beijing Normal Univ.
10028 - Capital Normal Univ.
10029 - Capital Institute of Physical Educations
10030 - Beijing Foreign Studies University
10031 - Beijing International Studies Univ.
10032 - Beijing Language and Culture Univ.
10034 - Central Univ. of Finance and Economics
10036 - Univ. of International Business and Economics
10038 - Capital Univ. of Business and Economics
10040 - China Foreign Affairs Univ.
10043 - Beijing Sport University
10045 - Central Conservatory of Music
10047 - Central Academy of Fine Arts
10048 - The Central Academy of Drama
10050 - Beijing Film Academy
10052 - Central University For Nationalities
10053 - China University of Political Science and Law
10054 - North China Electric Power University
10055 - Nankai University
10056 - Tianjin Univ.
10057 - Tianjin Univ. of Science and Technology
10062 - Tianjin Medical University
10063 - Tianjin Univ. of Traditional Chinese Medicine
10065 - Tianjin Normal Univ
10066 - Tianjin Univ. of Technology and Education
10068 - Tianjin Foreign Studies Univ. (TFSU)
10140 - Liaoning University
10141 - Dalian Univ. of Technology
10145 - Northeastern University
10151 - Dalian Maritime Univ.
10159 - China Medical University
10161 - Dalian Medical University
10165 - Liaoning Normal University
10166 - Shenyang Normal University
10172 - Dalian Univ. of Foreign Languages
10173 - Dongbei Univ of Finance and Economics
10183 - Jilin University
10184 - Yanbian Univeristy
10186 - Changchun Univ. of Science and Technology
10200 - Northeast Normal Univ.
10201 - Beihua Univ.
10203 - Jilin Normal Univ.
10210 - Heilongjiang Univ.
10213 - Harbin Institute of Technology
10217 - Harbin Engineering Univ.
10222 - Jiamusi University
10224 - Northeast Agriculture Univ.
10231 - Harbin Normal University
10246 - Fudan Univ.
10247 - Tongji Univ.
10248 - Shanghai Jiao Tong Univ.
10251 - East China Univ. of Science and Technology
10252 - Univ. of Shanghai for Science and Tech.
10255 - Donghua Univ.
10268 - Shanghai Univ. of Traditional Chinese Medicine.
10269 - East China Normal University
10270 - Shanghai Normal Univ.
10271 - Shanghai International Studies Univ.
10272 - Shanghai Univ. of Finance and Economics (SUFE)
10277 - Shanghai Univ. of Sport
10278 - Shanghai Conservatory of Music
10280 - Shanghai University
10284 - Nanjing Univ.
10285 - Soochow Univ.
10286 - Southeast University
10287 - Nanjing Univ. of Aeronautics and Astronautics
10288 - Nanjing Univ. of Science and Technology
10290 - China Univ. of Mining and Technology
10294 - Hohai University
10295 - Jiangnan University
10300 - Nanjing Univ. of Information Science and Tech.
10307 - Nanjing Agricultural University
10315 - Nanjing Univ of Chinese Medicine
10335 - Zhejiang University
10337 - Zhejiang Univ of Technology
10338 - Zhejiang Sci-Tech Univ.
10345 - Zhejiang Normal Univ.
10355 - China Academy of Art
10357 - Anhui University
10358 - Univ. of Science and Technology of China (USTC)
10359 - Hefei Univ. of Technology
10370 - Anhui Normal Univ.
10384 - Xiamen Univ.
10403 - Nanchang Univ.
10408 - Jingdezhen Ceramic Institute
10422 - Shandong University
10423 - Ocean University of China
10445 - Shandong Normal University
10459 - Zhengzhou University
10486 - Wuhan University
10487 - Huazhong Univ of Science and Tech
10491 - China Univ. of Geosciences (Wuhan)
10497 - Wuhan Univ. of Technology
10504 - Huazhong Agricultural Univ.
10511 - Huazhong Normal University
10520 - Zhongnan Univ. of Economics and Law
10560 - Shantou University
0081 - Embassy of P.R. China in Albania
0121 - Embassy of P.R. China in Algeria
0241 - Embassy of P.R. China in Angola
0281 - Embassy of P.R. China in Antigua and Barbuda
0311 - Embassy of P.R. China in Azerbaijan
0321 - Embassy of Argentina in P.R. China
0361 - Consulate - General of P.R. China in Sydney
0401 - Embassy of P.R. China in Austria
0441 - Embassy of P.R. China in Bahamas
0481 - Embassy of Bahrain in P.R. China
1041 - Embassy of P.R. China in Myanmar
1081 - Embassy of P.R. China in Burundi
1121 - Embassy of P.R. China in Byelorussia
1321 - Embassy of P.R. China in Cape Verde
1401 - Embassy of P.R. China in Central Africa
1441 - Embassy of P.R. China in Sri Lanka
1481 - Embassy of P.R. China in Chad
1521 - Embassy of P.R. China in Chile
1701 - Embassy of P.R. China in Colombia
1741 - Embassy of P.R. China in Comores
1781 - Embassy of P.R. China in the Republic of Congo
1801 - Embassy of P.R. China in the Democratic Republic of Congo
1881 - Embassy of P.R. China in Costa Rica
1911 - Embassy of P.R. China in Croatia
1921 - Embassy of Cuba in P.R. China
1961 - Embassy of P.R. China in Cyprus
2031 - Embassy of P.R. China in Czech
2041 - Embassy of P.R. China in Benin
2081 - Embassy of P.R China in Denmark
2121 - Embassy of P.R. China in Dominica
2141 - Office of Development Commercial of P.R. China in Dominicana
2181 - Embassy of P.R. China in Ecuador
2261 - Embassy of P.R. China in Equatorial Guinea
2301 - Embassy of P.R. China in Ethiopia
2321 - Embassy of P.R. China in Eritrea
2331 - Embassy of P.R. China in Esthonia
2421 - Embassy of P.R. China in Fiji Islands
2461 - Embassy of P.R. China in Finland
8041 - Embassy of P.R. China in Ukraine
8071 - Embassy of P.R. China in Macedonia
8081 - Embassy of P.R. China in Egypt
8261 - Embassy of P.R. China in United Kingdom
8341 - Embassy of P.R. China in Tanzania
8401 - Embassy of P.R. China in U.S.A.
8581 - Embassy of P.R. China in Uruguay
8601 - Embassy of P.R. China in Uzbekistan
8621 - Embassy of P.R. China in Venezuela

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The University

Applying to the university of choice before applying is OPTIONAL. We don't know if you get a better chance of either getting the scholarship or getting your first choice if you do get the scholarship. Also, there is no guarantee that you will get your first, second, or third choice that you list. There have been some people last year that didn't get any of their three and were sent to a random university.

If you do apply beforehand, the university will send you an acceptance letter (which you would include with your scholarship application) and a student visa form that you will use to apply for your Chinese visa.

You are normally not allowed to change universities, but it is possible. By possible I mean nearly impossible. A fellow Canadian classmate was only allowed to switch schools after getting a recommendation from 大山 himself. If you don't know who 大山 is, then look at it this way...have your country's ambassador talk to the head of the CSC on your behalf.

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The Foreigner Physical Examination Form

You can get it filled out by your family doctor, internist, or a doctor from a clinic. It usually takes no more than 20 minutes. You don't need a "seal," as stated - the signature of the doctor and a stamp with the doctor's name and address and contact information of the hospital/clinic is fine. As for the "photo section" - it requires either a signature or stamp on the photo and paper (half on/half off at the same time) so that it can act as a seal to prove that it is your photo and has not been tampered with.

For those of you currently in Beijing needing a physical examination it may be done here.

DO NOT send the ORIGINAL Foreign Physical Examination Form with either the CSC application or your visa application. Send copies. You keep the ORIGINAL with you - treat it like your passport (even though you'll never use it again).

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Post-Scholarship/In China

Notification: If you get the scholarship (notification is sent to you sometime around May/June - some people were notified as late as August), CSC will send you a package filled with information on the selected school, an admission letter from that school, a letter reminding you that you must register at the school between certain dates, and the Visa Application Form for Study in China (JW201) already filled out by CSC. All you need to do is get the visa, book your flight, and come to China.

Stipend: All fees are taken care of. The only thing you need to manage is your stipend. Some universities will give you an ATM card that gets money deposited in it every month, while others will require you to pick up cash from a certain office. the stipend is generally handed out at the end of the month. The stipend starts at 1400 RMB a month - and a normal person will blow that in about a couple weeks or so eating out, exploring the city, buying daily necessities, partying - but it is POSSIBLE to live off just that if you just stay home and study, eat at the cafeteria, and have no life. My school did say starting next year that the stipend would be doubled, so for example I would get 3400/mo as a master's student (1700x2). I'll believe it when I see it.

Housing: The housing provided is the cheapest international students' accommodations the school offers. Usually, it's a tiny room with two desks, two closets, and two beds - without a private bathroom (you use a shared one with the rest of the floor). At some schools you can move to a nicer dorm, even to a single - as long as you pay the difference. However, in ALL cases, if you decide to move off-campus, you will lose the housing money altogether. They will not help you with your rent.

Insurance: The scholarship pays for crap insurance. If you have health issues or would like to have comprehensive insurance, pay for your own plan before you get to China. You don't want to be on this insurance if something serious happens to you. You're going to get third-world country treatment and nothing more.

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JOIN THE DISCUSSION - SAY HELLO
Hello. Where are you applying from? Just studying Chinese or pursuing a degree? What did your local Chinese embassy say? Where and how did you get your papers notarized? Did you apply for your school of choice beforehand? Where did you get your Physical Exam done? Anything else you learned or would like to share?

Please refrain from discussion on which schools to apply to. There is a lot of information you may find around these forums. If you find the application process is too overbearing, we are here for you. Yet, keep in mind this is how things are done in China, so consider the commitment of living there.

I want to thank everyone that has been/is/will be a part of this project - including all the admins, members, lurkers - everyone, especially extrapages. Extrapages has helped out thousands over the years and helped spread awareness that the Chinese government will pay you to study in China. It's a huge collaborative effort, and I'm glad we're in this together. Good luck, boys and girls. See you in China!

kdavid Study Plan CSC 2011.pdf

[roddy]

I love you Brian. 

[Brian US]

Every so often I randomly meet someone here in Beijing that learned about the scholarship through this website. Gives me some encouragement.

[agustinahs]

Hi, I want to ask whether the recommendation letter from professor/employer should be in sealed envelope or not? Thank you

[grawrt]

I know this has been asked before but I cant seem to find it in the searches (sorry),

 

What should you send if you're applying for an MA program in China without yet having your degree? I wont be receiving my BA until Spring 2014.

[merric]

I was wondering if there were any scholarships for mid-year entrance?  I'm currently studying at Fudan - is there anything that would be available to cover the February-August semester?

[roddy]

Augustinahs, unless it specifies one way or another, it won't make any difference. 

Grawrt - in the past Brian has suggested just sending most recent transcripts. I'd say either this and / or a letter stating that you are enrolled and on course to graduate on whatever date. 

Merric - you're looking for a scholarship to cover a course you're already enrolled on? Odd. For what it's worth Brian provides a link in the first post where you can search for courses with a March start date. 

 

I'm not an expert on the CSC and have never applied for it, but we're a bit low on experts at the moment - hopefully Brian will have time to drop in and maybe some of last year's applicants can also weight in. On the off-chance any of the new applicants wants to read through last years topics and make notes on the accumulated wisdom, I'll add that to the first post. 

[phdaspirant]

Hello everyone, I am from India and have applied for CSC PhD scholarship in engineering at Harbin institute of technology. I am fortunate to have found a very nice potential supervisor who has helped me in CSC application process. But still, call it anxiety or paranoia or whatever, some doubts are still lingering in my mind after applying and would appreciate some feedback on the following :

1. Is the 20 page document limit a strict one ? My application came to about 25 pages, mostly as a result of including medical tests reports. Is there a chance that it can be rejected outright because of exceeding the limit ?

2. Does sending the material directly to the university(HIT in this case) increase the chances of getting the scholarship and does including the invitation letter from potential supervisor also increase the chances(or is it just mandatory of graduate applicants and does not affect the chances in any way ) ?

3. My 2 recommendation letters are from undergraduate professors which are more than 4 years old and not from master's professors, will it have an adverse impact ?

4. Since the research area i was applying to is somewhat new to me, I included a study plan with only a brief literature survey not a precise, focused research plan. would it again have an adverse effect in any way ?

5. My master's transcript does not show the overall GPA but only the grades(all A's and B's) achieved in various courses. would it again have an adverse impact?

7. Has anyone else included a copy of list of publications(4 in my case) and not the actual publications themselves ?

8. Why is CSC not asking for a resume or CV ? There was no place in the CSC online application to enter my entire educational and work history.

 

Thanks for going through all these questions patiently and awaiting your responses.

Good luck to everyone here !!!

[Alex_01]

I have a bit confusion regarding the CSC online form in the section (Contact in China and Family Members) Guarantor's Name filled..but what about Spouse, father and mother section.Is  Contact in China  and  Family Members different categories?

[phdaspirant]

hi, what is the average turn around time for the CSC PhD scholarship decision, different universities seem to have different deadlines, mine was december 30th ? would it be reasonable to expect a decision in 3-4 months, say in march-april ?

[phdaspirant]

@Alex, from what i can see, yes guarantor(has to be in china) and family details(in your home country) are different

[phdaspirant]

it seems to me after reading through previous years posts here, the chinese government wants to give scholarships to encourage students to come to china and study, and unless someone really makes a mess of their application, applicants generally tend to be successful ? is my hypothesis correct ?

[phdaspirant]

none around ?

[miketebyeks]

Does Zhenjiang Scie tech University ask for application fee.. coz it seems its not mentioned any where.

[AlexanderV]

Hello!, im going to apply this year, but i cant find the aplication form nor the heatlh status form, and the links provided on this tread, the 2013 and 2012 are not working. I have been trying to find those forms on the CSC webpage but i cant find them. can some one of you help me or post them here?

 

thanks

[kcb]

Hi, I had received scholarship last year but because of my personal issues i could not go to China last year. I want to apply this year but somewhere I heard that if you decline once you will not be offered scholarships again. Can someone please clarify a little or post further information. Thank you.

[Alex_01]

Hi, I am from Nepal neighboring country to China   . I have completed my undergraduate degree majoring Aeronautical Engineering from Nanjing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics,Nanjing China from  2008-2012 with self funding....The whole course was taught in english beside i learned chinese language for first two years which was included in curriculum. I can speak fluent chinese but writing is very difficult task for me.Upon graduation i came back to my country and did  internship.

Now I'm planning to apply masters degree in (Management Science and Engineering)  which is a different major from Aeronautics through CSC scholarship. So what is the probability of getting scholarship if i don't wish to learn language first but study directly for 3 years masters degree. I have searched Universities where  this course is taught in english.I am going to apply through chinese embassy in my country.

So i need suggestion in my case what shall i apply for best to get scholarship!!!!!    

[cmoss]

@agustinahs: my letters of recommendation were not in sealed envelopes (only my college transcript), so i don't think it is necessary

 

@grawrt: i am not sure on this, but I think providing your most recent college transcript and your high school diploma (just to be safe) would suffice

 

@merric: in respect to csc scholarship i don't believe so

 

@phdaspirant:

1. i feel like you should try to err on the side of caution and try not do anything to hurt your application, is there anyway to make your medical reports 2 sided?, that's what I did with my application last year so i didn't go over the page limit, though maybe going over the page limit isn't really a big deal

2. i remember someone mentioning this on either the csc 2012/13 general discussion or results page, but from my recollection i think sending directly to the the university directly may not really help you in receiving the scholarship because even though the university accepts you into the program, the csc people have the final say in whether you get the scholarship or not. i remember reading cases where people who sent their applications directly to university of their choice were accepted by the university, but when the university  sent their application on to csc, the csc didn't grant them the scholarship (nothing is really certain)

3. I can't really speak on this because I applied for a chinese language and my recommendations were from an mba student whose lab I worked in and my former fundraising supervisor in college. have you tried to get recommendations from your professors in your master's program? if that's not possible could you ask the undergraduate professors who wrote those recommendations to update them in terms of the time stamp, 4 years is a bit outdated.  im just thinking that in america, sending a recommendation 4 years old for a phd program would look odd.

4. hopefully someone who applied for a phd or masters program can help you with this answer

5. i think this is fine

7. maybe reading through the 2012/13 general discussion can help if you have not already done so

8. i included my resume in my application last year even though it wasn't asked for, in hindsight i don't think it wasn't necessary

 

and yes i think china wants to encourage people to come study in china, but i really can't say anything on the stats on who is successful and not

 

@AlexanderV: you can access the application online at this website: http://laihua.csc.edu.cn/inscholarship/student/studentLogout.do. you register first and then fill out the application online and once completed you print it out and send it to your embassy/dispatching authority/etc. i'm slow on the uptake but i didn't see how to attach a document, but hopefully this link takes you the the foreigner physical examination form: http://www.cucas.edu.cn/cucas_cms_Download.php?Url=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jdWNhcy5lZHUuY24vdXBsb2Fkcy92aWRlby8yMDExMTEvMTBkMWY4MTJhMzdhYmE1NjA1YmQ0ZTk1ODQwMGNhMmUucGRm&task=browser

 

@kcb: i read the same thing on this forum. did you apply through your country's embassy? if so, maybe try asking the person who notified you of your acceptance if applying again would likely have a good outcome

 

@Alex_01: i think the general consensus is that no one can tell you how likely you are to get the scholarship

[paperbagprince]

Hey All. Good Luck in Advanced.

A few questions, but I understand no one may have the answer.

 

1. I have a few majors in mind, dependent on the University. If I was to go to Renda, I would want Sociology, but if I was to go to MinDa, I would want Ethnography. Any ideas on how this may work?

 

2. Also curious to know what happens if I am awarded the scholarship and then I decline. Can I re-apply? Can I postpone?

 

Thanks!

[phdaspirant]

thank you cmoss, appreciate your views !