WH in Mandarin

[Guest Alainna]

Hello all,

This topic came up in a Syntax class, and I've been trying to think of how to explain it better to those who have not studied Chinese. Any suggestions?

What we are trying to explain is that in some languages, unlike English, one can ask a question (or use a question word -- WH) where one cannot in English. For example, in Japanese:

田中は林が何を読んだと言ったの？

(Tanaka-topic [Hayashi-nom What-accusitive read that] said-Question?)

However, the example offered by my professor, 你想知道谁买了什么？, caused a bit of an uproar between those (two) of us who understand at least an inkling of Chinese, as we were receiving different interpretations of it. The professor, his reading was, 'You wonder who bought what?' something we find shaky at best. Of course, the rest of the class was confused by our arguments, so... Any ideas? Perhaps sentences which could better demonstrate this?

Thank you,

Alainna

[Guest Anonymous]

However, the example offered by my professor, 你想知道谁买了什么？, caused a bit of an uproar between those (two) of us who understand at least an inkling of Chinese, as we were receiving different interpretations of it.

I thought that sentence looked a little funny.

I think the problem is that it's missing the question particle of 嗎 (ma).

你想知道誰買了什麼 is a declarative sentence which translates to "You want to know who bought what."

To make it a question, one must add 嗎 in the end:

你想知道誰買了什麼嗎？

[Guest Alainna]

That actually was my first thought (although I'd probably say 想不想). However, I don't think that such is what he thinks, as he was trying to explain it without the use of 吗 or any other questioning/yes-no element. According to him, just this sentence/question (?) should lead one to the reply that so-and-so bought such-and-such, or something along those lines.

I had similar problems with his Japanese example (and the one which I included was the one that I am more certain of and believe that he should use), but that's neither here nor there...

[Guest Anonymous]

Actually, if you don't use 嗎 and say 你想不想知道誰買了什麼？ then it would a different idea because this gives an impression that the other person never asked to know who bought what and the person asking the question just approached him or her. I know it sounds kind of confusing.

你想知道誰買了什麼嗎？:

A: 我想知道誰買了什麼。

B: 你想知道誰買了什麼嗎？

A: 對。

你想不想知道誰買了什麼？

B: 你想不想知道誰買了什麼？

A: 好

Neither of these are definite but that's generally how one would use 嗎 and "verb 不 verb".

[Tsunku]

According to him, just this sentence/question (?) should lead one to the reply that so-and-so bought such-and-such, or something along those lines.

If it is a question, then it reads to me like the answer should be a yes or a no. Yes, I want to know who bought what, or no, I don't want to know who bought what. I don't see at all how you would get the reply above from the question that was posed (which, I agree with Kulong, reads more like a statement than a question, but should we assume it was meant as a question?). It doesn't seem to me that he's approaching it right, but what would I know, I'm not a linguistics teacher.

[Guest Alainna]

Actually, if you don't use 嗎 and say 你想不想[/b']知道誰買了什麼？ then it would a different idea because this gives an impression that the other person never asked to know who bought what and the person asking the question just approached him or her. I know it sounds kind of confusing.

This is my natural inclination (a yes/no question), as that's how it's done in my native grammar. Even the 嗎 interpretation, which is my second inclination, is fine with me. But apparently he doesn't see this. I'm frustrated to hell with this. Apparently, according to some source he found, a person can say 你想知道誰買了什麼 and the answer shall be who-bought-what, which is... well, counterintuitive to my reading as well as others (Mandarin speakers, native and students, which does, of course, now include you all) I have asked.

However, two Cantonese speakers and one Hakka speaker have stted that they can say this and have it be a question, though it seems informal as it has no particle.

I agree that he's not approaching this well. Mandarin is a good example that question words can be imbedded in ways that in English are impossible, but his example is nasty. And he refuses to add even 嗎. Or change an example. It's enough to make me... well, I don't know what. At any rate, he's provided me with a slew of articles on this subject (through which I shall scour for this specific example and how they deigned to justify it), so perhaps I'll add more to this later.

Conclusion: Syntax is wacked, but my professor is even more so. :o

[smithsgj]

There's nothing wrong with double wh questions in English and Chinese generally. (Irish Gaelic, it seems, is one of the few languages where they are not possible!)

"Please can you tell me which bit goes where?"

(that's an embedded question, by the way: the non-embedded form is simply "Which bit goes where?")

With "ma" this sentence would be meaningless: "Is it the case that (=ma) which bit goes where."

In English, if there's a load of purchases lying on a table, bought by different people (for a party?), you can say:

"do you want to know who bought what?"

and

"who bought what?"

A well-formed answer to this well-formed question might be "Alainna bought the ice-cream and Kulong bought the beer". Maybe you don't find the questions that natural, or a bit marginal, but quite a lot of research in linguistics is based on them: looking at children's cognitive ability etc.

I've just checked with a native speaker, and in Taiwan

你想知道誰買了什麼嗎？

and

你想知道誰買了什麼？

are both OK and both have the meaning given above. The shorter form is more natural, apparently because the wh words already identify the sentence as a question (I can't quite see this, but that's what the native speaker says). You can use a declarative to ask a question in virtually all languages, including Mandarin.

So far so good... but if there's no difference between English and Chinese here, what on earth did your teacher mean!? Can we have a couple of the refs you were given?

[Quest]

你想知道誰買了什麼嗎？

and

你想知道誰買了什麼？

If you dont add "吗", you should use "想不想”.

你想知道誰買了什麼嗎？ = 你想不想知道誰買了什麼？

你想知道誰買了什麼？ I tried different ways to say this sentence, but I can't make it sound like a question, more like someone asked me he wanted to know who bought what, then I am repeating his question.

[smithsgj]

> 你想知道誰買了什麼嗎？ = 你想不想知道誰買了什麼？

Well, that's the official grammar rule, yes, but who abides by those when speaking their native language? Interesting that you as a native speaker and my colleague as another native speaker disagree on whether the 嗎 is needed to make the question sound natural! Actually she reacted pretty quick and it was her not me who came up with the buying food for a party context.

The central point, though, is not "Doesn't it sound more like a declarative than a question?" but "Is it possible to have more than one wh-word in a meaningful sentence?" The answer to that is undoubtedly Yes.

At least I think that's the central point...

[Guest Anonymous]

Well, that's the official grammar rule, yes, but who abides by those when speaking their native language?

Yes, it's true that unless one's TOTALLY way off, they can usually be understood even if they don't follow proper grammar.

"How is you?"

"I be fine."

I'm sure everyone who speaks English can understand that. It's just the difference between sounding correct and sounding like the mock conversation above.

[Quest]

after some more thoughts, I can finally picture someone saying "嗨，你想知道誰買了什麼？" to his/her close friend.

[smithsgj]

Kulong I'm not sure that How is you and I be fine are really things an English speaker would be likely to say, except in a sort of jokey way.

Look at my last post. I (inadvertently) broke the "rules" of English grammar twice (or three times, depending on which way you look at it) in one of my sentences, the one beginning Actually... This is the kind of thing I meant: what the rulebook says, and what a native speaker actually says, ain't necessarily the same thing.

[Guest Anonymous]

Kulong I'm not sure that How is you and I be fine are really things an English speaker would be likely to say, except in a sort of jokey way.

I never said native English speakers would say anything like that normally. I was pointing out the difference between speaking according to correct grammar... and otherwise.

Look at my last post. I (inadvertently) broke the "rules" of English grammar twice (or three times, depending on which way you look at it) in one of my sentences, the one beginning Actually... This is the kind of thing I meant: what the rulebook says, and what a native speaker actually says, ain't necessarily the same thing.

Grammar isn't taught in Taiwan or China because children are already familiar with the language pattern when they go to school. Unfortunately, this leads to sometimes people speaking with incorrect grammar. The safest bet would just be to follow the correct grammar rather than what you might have heard on the street.

[smithsgj]

"Taiwan or China"? Oops!

Either you're asking for Linguistics 101 (I don't think so somehow) or your post is a troll.

[JoH]

I don't understand why the sentence has 你 in it. If I am understanding you correctly, A is supposed to say

你想知道谁买了什么？

and B is supposed to answer by telling A who bought what. Is that right?

It would make much more sense to me if A said,

我想知道谁买了什么, because B already knows who bought what, doesn't he? It's A who wants to know.

With a 我 in it, it would be an indirect way of asking a question by making a statement. Like if you were to say, 我不知道你喜欢不喜欢. Although this takes the form of a statement, I think it would be clear that the speaker wanted to know if you liked it or not.

I　ｄｏｎ＇ｔ　ｋｎｏｗ　ｉｆ　ｔｈａｔ　ｍａｋｅｓ　ｓｅｎｓｅ　ｏｒ　ｎｏｔ!

[smithsgj]

I think the idea is that A knows who bought what, and is tentatively inviting B to quiz her on same.

I've got it! In English you can ask a yes/no question with an embedded wh-question in a non-question (declarative) framework. Like "you wanna know what I think?"

You can also use double-wh questions: "Who bought what"

And embed them "Do you want to know who bought what?"

But it's not possible in the non-question framework: "You want to know who bought what?"

If you said that, it would mean something like:

A: "I want to know who bought axxssghsgaghhdghjdsjhdh-rubbish-grump."

b: "You want to know who bought WHAAAAT?"

In Chinese, it means "Do you want me to tell me who bought what? (eg which person bought the ice-cream, who the beer etc"

Do I get a prize? Or perhaps at least I'll be forgiven for speaking my mind on the other thread????

[Guest Anonymous]

"Taiwan or China"? Oops!

Either you're asking for Linguistics 101 (I don't think so somehow) or your post is a troll.

I beg your pardon?

If you're hinting that I somehow suggested that "Taiwan" is the official name for the Republic of China then you'd be wrong.

I was educated in the REPUBLIC OF CHINA until the fourth grade and I happen to know that grammar isn't taught over in PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA as well.

[roddy]

Smithsgj / kulong

If you want to send messages to each other, there's a handy little private messaging function available through the links in the page header. Thank you.

There's a 'Posting Guidelines' topic linked in my signature. I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts on it, as right now I'm not overly happy with the way the forum is being used.

Roddy

[Tsunku]

I think the idea is that A knows who bought what' date=' and is tentatively inviting B to quiz her on same.

I've got it! In English you can ask a yes/no question with an embedded wh-question in a non-question (declarative) framework. Like "you wanna know what I think?"

You can also use double-wh questions: "Who bought what"

And embed them "Do you want to know who bought what?"

But it's not possible in the non-question framework: "You want to know who bought what?"

If you said that, it would mean something like:

A: "I want to know who bought axxssghsgaghhdghjdsjhdh-rubbish-grump."

b: "You want to know who bought WHAAAAT?"

In Chinese, it means "Do you want me to tell me who bought what? (eg which person bought the ice-cream, who the beer etc"

[/quote']

I see it this way too. If you ask a question like this in English though, you're not going to get person B to respond by answering that so and so bought such and such. It implies that person A knows who bought what, and is asking person B if he wants to be told that information. I still think the answer would be something along the lines of "yes, tell me who bought what", or "no, I don't care who bought what."

My problem isn't with the double question words, its with the "you," like the last poster said. If you said "I want to know who bought what," then the example would make a lot more sense because that would get the answer her linguistics professor said it would. As it stands, using "you" changes the question part of the sentence from the "who bought what?" to the "(do you) want to know?"

Does that make sense?

[smithsgj]

Tsunku:

Yes, it makes sense. But. The professor's "reading" was "You wonder who bought what?". "Wonder", obviously, is expressed by 想知道 "want to know". I think the professor used "you" advisedly, not by mistake instead of I.

Then in Chinese the answer could be

something along the lines of "yes, tell me who bought what", or "no, I don't care who bought what."

as you say. In English, though, the answer could be "I want to know who bought the *BEER* obviously. Why don't you listen more carefully?" The question is an echo question, not a proper wh- question.