Pronouncing the c in pinyin, for instance in cai 菜

[ajmc12]

Hi,

 

I can hear the difference between cai (菜) and zai (在) but I can't pronounce the first one properly.

 

My (native speaking) wife tells me that every time I try to say cai (菜) I actually say something much closer to  zai (在).

 

 

In the past, when I've had problems with pronunciation they've got better over time with lots of listening and correction from wife, but I haven't got any better at this, and I'm worried that the problem is starting to become entrenched.

 

 

Does anyone have any advice on how to properly pronounce the pinyin c (as in  cai (菜)), for example, descriptions of the correct mouth positions etc.?

 

(btw i've heard its like the English 'ts' but that doesn't work for me----I still get something too close to the z when i try that).

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

[renzhe]

The only difference between c and z is that the former one is aspirated, while the latter is not.

This means that there is a "puff of air" coming out as you pronounce it. In Mandarin, this is the same as the distinction between p-b, t-d, and k-g. In the first case, there is a "puff of air", in the second, there isn't.

Try to exhale forcefully as you say "c" and see if this passes the wife test

[Demonic_Duck]

Or do the "tissue-paper-in-front-of-mouth" test. If the paper barely moves, you're saying 在. If it crumples, you're saying 菜.

[Hofmann]

If it crumples, you said "om nom nom nom."

[rethinker]

I have struggled with this one a lot.  It is the only sound in Chinese I cannot pronounce correctly in all sound clusters -- and I consider myself a language teaching professional.  In fact, the character cai (菜) that you are having trouble with presents the most problems for me also. 

But I have one very practical piece of advice: The T of western languages and pinyin is pronounced with the toungue touching the back of the upper teeth or the alveolar ridge -- that bony thing just behind your upper teeth -- and then pulling away.  C in pinyin is pronounced with the tongue touching the back of the lower teeth.  And, yes, aspirated as renzhe says.

I've never seen this discussed in books -- just picked it up from observation.  So, if anyone disagrees or can add more info, I'd like to hear from you.

[yhe2006]

My old xi ren laoshi taught me this trick for pronouncing "c" and "z":

 

for c say "it's high" but drop the begining i. (which will result in pinyin cai)

 

for z say  "it's I" but drop the begining i (= zai)

[tysond]

For me, improvement in pronunciation has followed really intense sessions with a teacher trained in teaching Chinese to foreigners, who has a very clear idea of exactly where the tongue should be in the mouth, and mouth shape.  Eventually this lead to some breakthroughs in being able to make new sounds.

 

Worth investing in some lessons like this if you can.

[Demonic_Duck]

Not sure whether that'd be necessary for this particular problem (assuming it's not just a symptom of systemic pronunciation problems). If you can pronounce 在 correctly and and can work out the difference between aspirated and unaspirated consonants (cf. 踢 / 低、爸 / 怕、机 / 七 etc.) you're basically there. No need to worry about tongue position or mouth shape, because they're exactly the same as for 在.

[smartmandarin]

yes, "c" sound is aspirated, when pronuncing the sound, you push more air out from your mouth.

but the "z" sound with no air flow out from your mouth.

 

actually "zai" and "cai" are very different meanings, and when you're speaking Chinese, you are not only speak a word.

you say a lot of sentences, it would have more clues for you to tell from the context that if people are speaking "zai" or "cai".

[alanmd]

For me the simplest way is that pinyin 'c' is the sound from it's, but these things vary depending on your accent (some people pronounce "it's" as "itz"!).

[hbuchtel]

Like the example above, I've always used 'cats' (caTS) and AIDs (aiDZ) for the 'c' and 'z' in pinyin.

You can practice the 'c' pronunciation by putting 'cats' before the word you are trying to pronounce, saying them together as one word several times, then taking away the 'ca' from 'cats' and saying the Chinese word by itself.

For example, if you are trying to pronounce 'cai', you say 'catsai' several times to get a feel for it, then take away the 'ca' and just say 'tsai' ('cai').