As a beginner addressing experienced learners, what makes Chinese exceptionally difficult

[abcdefg]

My approach when I first started studying Chinese was to read the grammar explanation once, then drill the hell out of the example sentences. I never had to remember any specifics—the feel of how the grammar pattern should be was just internalized.

Yes, me too, Sparrow. If I'm writing something as homework, I can look up the rules and apply them. But I cannot do it fast in actual conversation. The patterns have to already exist inside my head for me to use them rapidly.

 

I find that if I pause in daily conversation with Chinese friends, they just supply the missing piece I am groping for. It's better if I just bull on ahead without breaking stride, and if I say something horribly wrong, they will say "What?" (or "WTF?") and I can backtrack and try again.

[sparrow]

@abcdefg:

Yeah, I have the same experience with friends. They'll stop me when I stop making any sense, but for small things, they usually won't. From my perspective, I love when Chinese friends want to help me with a grammar point—but I feel like if I did that to others, I would annoy the hell out of them!

 

I've had a few friends where we would constantly correct each other—I'd practice Chinese, she'd practice English—but those kinds of friends were few and far in between. And they tended to be very...与众不同.

 

 

But that's why books and other media are such amazing resources for learning. They provide endless examples of word usage.

[Rowan]

 

In light of the thread - just going with the best posts above - if anything "makes Chinese exceptionally difficult" it is that it is easier to automatize a grammar book (French, Russian) than it is to set up and experience the extensive audio-only experience that ingrains those usages of which c_redman wrote, or which makes that sunflower seed trick possible.

I don't follow exactly what you mean by this. Wouldn't this type of thing be ingrained from normal exposure?

 

I think this is a crucial point that is incorrect in the original premise. Yes, you could learn 2000-3000 characters in about a year, and be able to pronounce anything you read, but would still be far from fluent. What we would consider "words" are commonly more than one character for content words, and that means maybe 15000-20000 more items to study. In terms of listening, it's also multisyllabic. There are more homophones to deal with than other languages, but it's not an insurmountable problem. For me, it's still the large number of words one needs to know, and be able to recall in real-time.

 

 

Yes, I am very familiar with the 20,000 figure from French and I knew Chinese was no different, it's just that, of course, the 20,000 in Chinese are made up of combinations of characters that take a lot longer to learn themselves than stringing a couple of the same 26 letters together 20,000 times. As you say though, it's not an insurmountable problem so I knew that couldn't be something that would put Chinese in a different league than a language written in the Roman alphabet. 

One of these is more correct in each case, but even native speakers (like me) would have difficulty explaining why, other than collocation. You could take 4 years of English class and read 10 textbooks and never learn which is right in each case. Even now, I can't find a decent rule online other than unsourced theories. Is it about public transportation or historically open-ended seating? if you insisted on a grammar point for this, any working theory would be mostly safe. But it would be a rule that covers a small number of situations. Alternatively, you could just go by common usage, which would be more accurate, but would require a lot of language exposure.

If you want an idea of the nuances in Chinese grammar, look through Yip and Rimmington's Chinese: A Comprehensive Grammar. Why can you say 看书 (to read) and not 阅读书? Because an action verb and an object must obey a rhythmic principle, and a disyllabic verb can't be followed by a monosyllabic object. Why is 他在跟他聊天 (he is chatting with him) correct and not 他在聊天 (he is chatting)? Because 聊天 (chat) is incompatible with a singular subject. What Chinese lacks in verb conjugation (which I never thought was a difficult part of language learning anyway), it more than makes up for in the number of highly specific usage rules. 

 

This seems to be what is coming up the most in this thread, these highly specific grammar usage rules. I am curious as to how you would compare this particular complication in terms of additional time required compared to say the challenge of learning the characters or just learning a full native vocabulary?

 

 

 

And in a way, dealing with this problem in Chinese is easier because most Chinese visual media has subtitles due to the number of "non-standard" speakers in China. This subtitle issue is not true for most languages—though it can be fixed by buying DVDs to watch. That still doesn't help with news broadcasts, though.

That sounds amazing. With French I am constantly frustrated when I can't quite hear something and there are no subtitles or the only subtitles available are in English. I just want a word for word transcription of what I am attempting to listen to.

[querido]

To Rowan's first question in #23:

"Wouldn't this type of thing be ingrained from normal exposure?"

Normal exposure is blocked EDIT: Normal *listening* exposure is blocked- up to some high level - by new words that pop up. This typically diverts or entangles almost every learner into the machinery of written char/word learning.

By the time I had learned the new words I had practically memorized that lesson and/or its audio. By then it is impossible, from that audio, to experience "normal exposure" to these words; it is always said that one should learn words in context, yes, but they must be experienced in other contexts - as popping up without warning, needing to be understood instantly while surrounded by other words, as this is the "listening comprehension" that we're talking about, right?

There is no other explanation, barring some horrible intellectual disability that I can't see in myself, of why e.g. "Wrong, Wrong Wrong" 300-word level at normal speed should still be so difficult; I have long "known" all but one or two of those words.

This is why I suggested that graded reader audio of stories "long enough to evade memorization" might be much more powerful than has been generally recognized.

So, content producers, listen up! :-) Someday it will be done with computers: E.g., after every podcast marked "learned" the subscriber's "radio station" would be updated, providing continuously new audio using every word and grammatical feature learned so far and no others. But until then, I'm saying that graded reader audio - graded audio - could be long enough to be effectively "continuously new". Normal speed please, and don't forget Cantonese too. Thanks. :-)

Did I explain myself ok?

[Rowan]

 

Did I explain myself ok?

 

 

 

What exactly does this graded reader audio consist of? I think that's the source of my misunderstanding. I was going to just say for reading/listening comprehension why not just read material outside of just stuff that's been tailored exclusively for language learners? Write down what you don't know and use rote memorization to learn them. Keep reading to reinforce it all and see it in context, always writing what you don't know. And then do that until you have a sufficient vocabulary in a few years.

[querido]

"What exactly does this graded reader audio consist of?"

It's the audio that comes with a graded reader; it's controlled-vocabulary audio.

 

As the thread is about what is "exceptionally difficult", most of it has been about listening comprehension.

Normal *listening* exposure is blocked... etc, etc, as I said above.

I told you my opinion, that the method you suggest (which almost everyone follows, as I did) pulls one away from the audio channel, from "comprehensible (audio) input".

Edit:

Rowan, what you said in #25 is all about reading and writing. Since the thread is about what is "exceptionally difficult", and since most of the other posters are also talking about listening comprehension, I just wanted to tell you that in my opinion, the things you're talking about in #25 *do not touch* listening comprehension, almost zero. Then I talked about why short pieces like audio podcasts are non-ideal, and I suggested an alternative. The alternative I suggested is audio that allows the brain to work on listening comprehension without constantly running into new words to learn. The End. :-)

[Rowan]

querido

But... what is a graded reader, haha? I wasn't sure what you meant in your other post about "wrong, wrong wrong" on words you thought you knew.

 

I meant the regimen I suggested for vocabulary to be a response to the problem you cited about new words coming up and thus blocking listening comprehension practice. My solution being to just focus on vocabulary until it isn't a problem any more and then move on to listening comprehension. 

 

I see, so you were suggesting a way to work on listening comprehension with a limited vocabulary. If your goal is mastery though, I'm wondering why you would consider the other method (focus on vocabulary first, then listening) non-ideal since you're going to want a full vocabulary at some point?

 

Also, I'm under the impression that most of the responses I've got so far have cited the intricacies of grammar patterns as the factor that most separates Chinese, not so much listening comprehension, which is hard in every language. On the other hand, people have cited speaking to be more difficult with the added complication of tones, but not so much comprehension, maybe I've missed some posts though.

[sparrow]

Graded reading/audio means that the material is made to only include the vocabulary and grammar that has been studied at your level. In an ideal world, content would be graded at the 250-word level, 500, 1000, 2000, and so on.

 

People will disagree with me here, but I'm a firm believer in being thrown into the deep end and managing. Pick up newspaper articles and work through them sentence by sentence with a dictionary. This is easier than ever with electronic dictionaries that can recognize hand-written input.

 

The method is more difficult in Chinese, but it is doable. At the beginning of your career, do a sentence or two per day. Then increase slowly. You are exposing yourself to real, true-to-life language. It may be slow at first, but it will speed up in time.

[Rowan]

I agree Sparrow, that is my method with French. The more common words will be those you learn more frequently and your vocabulary will augment in a graded way anyway. With wordreference (favorite site on the internet) I can set up my browser to be able to highlight, right-click, and then search into that site instead of a search engine. I can read all I like online and looking up a word is practically effortless. 

[imron]

I sort of disagree.  I do agree that people should be trying to get in to native content as soon as possible, but jumping straight in to novels and newspapers is not going to be very productive at the beginner level when there is so much unknown vocab that you're essentially just remembering long, random vocab lists.

 

Graded readers provide a nice easy path to native content, with all of the same benefits, plus the fact that you don't need a huge vocab, and you'll be able to more easily understand what you are reading.

[Rowan]

 

I sort of disagree.  I do agree that people should be trying to get in to native content as soon as possible, but jumping straight in to novels and newspapers is not going to be very productive at the beginner level when there is so much unknown vocab that you're essentially just remembering long, random vocab lists.

 

Graded readers provide a nice easy path to native content, with all of the same benefits, plus the fact that you don't need a huge vocab, and you'll be able to more easily understand what you are reading.

That's true, and I imagine at the very beginning, like the first thousand or two words they would be suitable. I think after that though you get to a point where you hit a bank of vocabulary that is much less fundamental than the more basic words but at the same time is much larger in size and at that point I would say native materials are better. I guess that's more or less what you're saying anyway though.

[querido]

Rowan said: "most of the responses I've got so far have cited the intricacies of grammar patterns as the factor that most separates Chinese, not so much listening comprehension"

By "listening comprehension" I meant understanding what flies into the ear, including as much of that grammar as is necessary, and almost instantly! I don't understand what else "listening comprehension" could mean!

Rowan agreed with Imron: "That's true, and I imagine at the very beginning, like the first thousand or two words they would be suitable."

Rowan, you said in your first post that you're a beginner and of course I was talking to you.

However you do it, I hope you don't neglect listening comprehension from the beginning.

Good luck and bye bye for now! :-)

[Rowan]

 

 

Rowan said: "most of the responses I've got so far have cited the intricacies of grammar patterns as the factor that most separates Chinese, not so much listening comprehension"

By "listening comprehension" I meant understanding what flies into the ear, including as much of that grammar as is necessary, and almost instantly! I don't understand what else "listening comprehension" could mean!

Well, by listening comprehension I would understand just that, listening comprehension. Not the complex grammar patterns. Sure, you might need to know those to comprehend the spoken language, but not more so than you would need to know vocabulary or whatever else. Likewise, the written word follows the same grammar rules as the spoken word so I'm not sure why you want to conflate learning grammar patterns with spoken comprehension and not the written comprehension.

 

 

Rowan agreed with Imron: "That's true, and I imagine at the very beginning, like the first thousand or two words they would be suitable."

Rowan, you said in your first post that you're a beginner and of course I was talking to you.

Not quite sure what you are referring to here...

 

 

 I hope you don't neglect listening comprehension from the beginning.

Well, I find that listening comprehension is strongly improved when you know all your vocabulary and the best way to learn vocabulary isn't listening to rapid native passages, it's sitting down with a book and a dictionary. I get the impression that you're thinking of listening comprehension as a skill in and of itself, totally separate from learning vocabulary. But isn't a good listening comprehension made up at least somewhat of a strong familiarity with all the words you are likely to hear at a given moment? By learning written vocabulary you build a foundation and then when you hear the spoken version it reinforces it slightly, and at a certain point you know the word so well that it's second nature. How can you accomplish that if you practice with a highly limited vocabulary? I feel like getting a good native level vocabulary base is the first step, and the second step is just endless exposure. And when you accumulate a few thousand hours of just listening you'll have really good listening comprehension. Does the tonal nature of Chinese make this unreasonable?

 

Not trying to criticize your method, just trying to understand better. Obviously you have more experience with Chinese, regardless of what I've done with French. 

[imron]

That's true, and I imagine at the very beginning, like the first thousand or two words they would be suitable. I think after that though you get to a point where you hit a bank of vocabulary that is much less fundamental than the more basic words

That's exactly the point of graded readers!  To gradually expose you to native-like content, starting at a very simple level and then building upon words you already know until you reach a point where you can consume native content.

 

With Chinese, I would say the cutoff starts to occur around the 5,000-6,000 word mark (note words, not characters), rather than 1,000-2,000.

[querido]

To Rowan #33:

Yes, one needs to know the words.
"Listening comprehension" is often listed as one of the four skills: reading, writing, listening, speaking.
It is understood that there is interplay between those four skills.
Nobody thinks that one can understand spoken or recorded speech without knowing any words.
 
I didn't mean to suggest that one should restrict one's vocabulary in order to "practice with a highly limited vocabulary"! I'm suggesting that it would be a good idea to practice with whatever vocabulary one has so far before going too much further, and I suggested a way to do that.

 

"Not trying to criticize your method"
Unfortunately, it was not my method in Mandarin. It is my advice in hindsight. I learned 3000 words in the usual way before I realized that my listening and conversational skills were infantile. Maybe you will do better.
 
Info: The Graded Chinese Reader series now contains books at the 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, and 3000 word levels.
These levels are keyed to known word lists for which there are pre-made decks for anki, etc.

It would be fascinating if some beginner would use anki, etc. to learn those first 500 words without audio, and then listen to the audio of the Graded Chinese Reader 500-word level book, and then tell the forum how well he followed the stories.

 

Edit: "Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!" at normal speed is the fastest of the Chinese Breeze 300-word level readers. Try it! It could be interesting. Good luck and goodbye for now! :-)

[Rowan]

 

To Rowan #33:

Yes, one needs to know the words.

"Listening comprehension" is often listed as one of the four skills: reading, writing, listening, speaking.

It is understood that there is interplay between those four skills.

Nobody thinks that one can understand spoken or recorded speech without knowing any words.

 

I didn't mean to suggest that one should restrict one's vocabulary in order to "practice with a highly limited vocabulary"! I'm suggesting that it would be a good idea to practice with whatever vocabulary one has so far before going too much further, and I suggested a way to do that.

 

"Not trying to criticize your method"

Unfortunately, it was not my method in Mandarin. It is my advice in hindsight. I learned 3000 words in the usual way before I realized that my listening and conversational skills were infantile. Maybe you will do better.

 

Info: The Graded Chinese Reader series now contains books at the 500, 1000, 1500, 2000, and 3000 word levels.

These levels are keyed to known word lists for which there are pre-made decks for anki, etc.

It would be fascinating if some beginner would use anki, etc. to learn those first 500 words without audio, and then listen to the audio of the Graded Chinese Reader 500-word level book, and then tell the forum how well he followed the stories.

 

Edit: "Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!" at normal speed is the fastest of the Chinese Breeze 300-word level readers. Try it! It could be interesting. Good luck and goodbye for now! :-)

I see, thank you for having the patience to explain so much to me, hah. I'm curious as to what level you currently are with Mandarin? Also, do you think of spending an extended period (talking many months if not years) focused mainly on reading and vocabulary followed by a major transition into solely speaking and listening as merely undesirable because it leaves your skill level unbalanced (among the four you mentioned), or as inefficient in the long run when compared with a more balanced approach?

 

Also, what is anki?

[sparrow]

 Imron said:

but jumping straight in to novels and newspapers is not going to be very productive at the beginner level when there is so much unknown vocab that you're essentially just remembering long, random vocab lists.

 

 

I don't feel people should make vocab lists out of reading material for a while. Stick with your normal vocab lists, but look stuff up, write stuff down, and keep reading. Some things will stick, but the most you'll remember are the common patterns and the way things are generally said.

 

But perhaps the graded readers are good too. I think more than anything, students should expose themselves to the language: Listen to Mandarin (all the time), read in Mandarin (non-textbook), and speak as much as you can. Grammar and vocab should take up less of your time IMO.

[querido]

To Rowan:
My vocabulary is about 5000 words now. My listening and conversation skills have improved a little because I've had a tutor (live conversation) for two and a half years. Edit: I'm not one of the better learners here, just sharing my opinions.

Regarding your second question I, personally, found it terribly painful to go back and catch up, as though I were carrying a mountain of dead weight on my back. In fact, I never did catch up.

There are already threads about keeping the skills fairly balanced. At most, some will suggest going ahead and cramming maybe 1000 words to get started (I wouldn't). Most people think that is relatively easy to do. That's why I wasn't talking about learning words, because the thread was about relatively harder things.

 

Anki is a popular flashcard program.

[imron]

but look stuff up, write stuff down, and keep reading

My point was that if you are at the beginner level and you do this with general native level content, you are basically creating long, random vocab lists.

 

At the beginner level (and probably even low intermediate) you can't meaningfully read general native content.  At best, you are reading a poor translation, based off the English meaning of the words you have looked up, intermingled with the small amount of vocab that you do know.

 

Graded readers help out because the limited vocabulary set used allows you to do more actual reading and less looking up.

 

I think we are in general agreement however that users should expose themselves to the language.

[Guest realmayo]

The normal advice for someone wanting to improve their ability reading, writing, listening and speaking in a foreign language is to spend lots of time reading, writing, listening and speaking in that language. Chinese throws up obstacles in all of those areas. E.g.:

 

Reading: must memorise characters; no word spacing; no identification of proper nouns

Writing: must memorise characters; larger gap between written and spoken languages

Listening: tones; dialects; huge number of two-character words made out of limited number of sounds (therefore many homophones and similar-sounding words)

Speaking: tones; very limited margin for error in pronunciation

 

And perhaps the most important thing is that often these skills don't link like they do in many other languages: the skills don't mutually reinforce each other. You can read a word whose meaning you understand but you have completely forgotten how to pronounce it. Or you can hear a word and the sound gives you no clue at all about what it means. I think the characters+limited-number-of-sounds feature of Chinese makes this lack of connectedness a serious problem.

 

The result is while repeated exposure to the language is still the only way to make real progress, I think the benefit you get per period of exposure is less than in many other languages. Add to that is the complete foreignness of the language and culture to someone from, say, Europe, and you get a language where each burst of progress feels very hard-won, and as a result extremely satisfying.