中國人 -- what does it mean?

[smithsgj]

I describe myself as 英國人. I have a British passport, and I was born and usually live within the boundaries of the territory normally described as 英國 in Chinese.

The term 中國人 can be used in the same way to refer to a person of the territory administered from Beijing. It can also be extended to cover people in territories that the speaker thinks should be included but currently are not.

It can also be extended to mean someone who lives outside China and is of Chinese... Race? Ethnicity? Culture? Identity? Parents? Grandparents?

It's a silly facet of an otherwise perfectly good word, and we should stop using it in this way.

[Guest Anonymous]

Another example of Westerner forcing Western values onto non-Western cultures.

You say you're English (英國人） because you have a British passport and you were born in England. So if you move and become a citizen of another country and have children there, will your children be English? Does your passport say who you are or do you say who you are?

Chinese (中國人) isn't a race. It isn't an ethnicity either (there are 56 ethnicities in China as you may already know). It's a cultural identity. Is American (美國人) a race? Is it an ethnicitiy?

I really don't understand your negative feeling toward the 中國人 identity.

---

Edited:

Keep in mind though, I am not saying that *ALL* Chinese descendents who are born outside of China should consider themselves Chinese.

I actually have a few American-born Chinese friends who consider themselves Americans because their parents or even grandparents were born in the U.S. and after all these years, their family has lost touch with the Chinese culture and were absorbed by the American culture, which is perfectly fine. They feel like they can relate more to the American culture and society than the Chinese, therefore they consider themselves Americans and I don't see anything wrong with that

However, there are still many oversea Chinese 華僑 who held on to their Chinese roots and although have integrated themselves into the mainstream culture of the country of their choice, they still haven't forgotten their own culture. There are also more and more second or third generation Chinese-Americans who may not have been brought up in a "Chinese family" but started to learn the Chinese language and culture on their own once they've reached a certain age and wanted to get in touch with their own background.I personally fall into this category and I don't see anything wrong with this either.

The point is, the 中國人 identity is a cultural identity and not a racial or ethnic one because it can be lost or regained while one's racial or ethnic identity is forever.

[Tsunku]

If people outside of the political boundaries of today's China think of themselves as Chinese, what's the big deal? I know plenty of ethnic Chinese from South East Asia who call themselves Chinese first. They speak Chinese. Their ancestors lived in China. They still retain many Chinese customs. The Chinese culture ia a part of their identity.

Of course the PRC can't claim these people as citizens, but as long as there is diaspora, the concept of identity is going to go beyond political borders. I don't think you can try to stop people from defining themselves in a certain way. The Chinese definitly aren't the only people that do this.

[Guest Anonymous]

If people outside of the political boundaries of today's China think of themselves as Chinese' date=' what's the big deal? I know plenty of ethnic Chinese from South East Asia who call themselves Chinese first. They speak Chinese. Their ancestors lived in China. They still retain many Chinese customs. The Chinese culture ia a part of their identity.

Of course the PRC can't claim these people as citizens, but as long as there is diaspora, the concept of identity is going to go beyond political borders. I don't think you can try to stop people from defining themselves in a certain way. The Chinese definitly aren't the only people that do this.[/quote']

Exactly! :-)

Besides, there is a difference between being a 中國人 and a 中華人民供和國公民.

[Quest]

I dont think smithsgj understands the term 中國, to him 中國 means PRC. To us 中國 means this historical land that was left to us by our ancesters, we call it the Middle Kingdom. Not the People's Republic of China, don't know where they got the name China anyways.

[Green Pea]

I was born in a Western country. I am as white as freshly fallen snow. I have lived in China and other Asian countries for many years. I am a resident of China. I speak Chinese moderately well. I eat Chinese food. I watch Chinese TV. I have Chinese friends. I have been to more places in China than most people. When people ask me what country I am from, I say China. I culturally identify with China. I am Chinese, no?

[akdn]

If people outside of the political boundaries of today's China think of themselves as Chinese, what's the big deal? I know plenty of ethnic Chinese from South East Asia who call themselves Chinese first. They speak Chinese. Their ancestors lived in China. They still retain many Chinese customs. The Chinese culture ia a part of their identity.

I spent a year (2001-2002) working in a private language school in the city of Medan, North Sumatra, Indonesia. The school I worked for was owned by ethnic Chinese, the majority of the teachers were ethnic Chinese (out of around 40 teachers, just two were ethnically Indonesian), and the students were all ethnic Chinese.

Now, although I loved all I worked for and with (they inspired me to return to China after I’d been away for two years), I found their ‘Chinese nationality comes first’ attitude hard to take. I *understood* it, but I felt that it was particularly unhelpful, given the precarious ethnic situations in Indonesia.

I see why the Indonesians may resent the Chinese: the Dutch colonised the country, dispossessing the Indonesians of their land, and setting them to work in plantations. The nomadic Chinese were able to continue their lives in trading, prosper, and continue to be economically-minded up to today. One reason all the students in my school were Chinese was because they could afford to attend a private school. However, another reason was probably because the Chinese cocoon themselves into their own private society there. The division is most obvious in their choice of language: they speak Hokkien first, and Indonesian second. No Indonesian would be made to feel comfortable in that environment.

Of course this cuts both ways. The Chinese aren’t in the habit of rampaging through Indonesian areas of the city, burning down businesses, and killing people. Unfortunately, the Indonesians are, (through Chinese areas, of course), most recently during the 1997 economic meltdown in SEA.

There is a huge build-up of ill-feeling between these two communities. Yet I feel that if the Chinese could accept to be ‘more Indonesian’, this ill-feeling may begin to subside.

I knew of no Chinese – Indonesian friendships. My Chinese friends would claim to ‘not trust’ Indonesians. ‘Indonesians hate us’, they would say. I never saw a Chinese use public transport, and they would be amazed that I travelled by bus everyday (‘Don’t you get robbed?). But surely one of the ways that ill-feeling grew was because Chinese were seen to be ‘above’ Indonesians. In Indonesia the concept of ‘arrogance’ is as important as the concept of ‘face’ in China.

There is a reasonably successful relationship between these two communities in Jakarta, and this is due in part to the fact that Chinese in Jakarta don’t speak Hokkien. They may well still think of themselves as ‘Chinese’, but the biggest barrier to cultural peace has been broken down there.

Thought for the day:

Cultural heritage is important, but it shouldn't act as a barrier between races who need to co-exist.

[akdn]

don't know where they got the name China anyways.

Wasn't it named after the Qin (sounds like 'chin') Dynasty?

Are you suggesting that we should all refer to China as the 'Middle Kingdom' from now on???

In that case, I say that China's got a few adjustments to make in the names it uses for other countries, too

[Quest]

akdn, haha I said that because smithsgj thinks China defines People's Republic of China. I was trying to tell him the Western name of China isn't strictly PRC to Chinese, because China != PRC.

[edited. Check your PM's Quest. Let's keep this friendly please. Roddy]

[Guest Anonymous]

I was born in a Western country. I am as white as freshly fallen snow. I have lived in China and other Asian countries for many years. I am a resident of China. I speak Chinese moderately well. I eat Chinese food. I watch Chinese TV. I have Chinese friends. I have been to more places in China than most people. When people ask me what country I am from, I say China. I culturally identify with China. I am Chinese, no?

Since being 中國人 isn't a racial or ethnic identity but a cultural one, if you feel like you can relate enough to the Chinese culture to call yourself 中國人 then I would surely agree. :-)

Cultural heritage is important, but it shouldn't act as a barrier between races who need to co-exist

That is true.

I have never been to Indonesia but I have heard that the situation is really bad. However, Indonesia may be just a special case. I know that in the United States, or at least in Houston, Texas, most Chinese people are pretty well integrated into the mainstream culture and society. Of course there are always older people who feel more comfortable staying within the boundaries of Chinatown but that's understandable. Interesting thing though, there are much more Vietnamese here than Chinese and they seem to have created their own Vietnamese "society" therefore I know many younger Vietnamese, some were even born here, who are much less "Americanized".

However, back to Indonesia. Like I said, I don't understand the situation there completely because I've never been there. But I believe unless the Chinese somehow provoked the Indonesians like parading around the street with racial slogans or signs or simply beat up or spit on Indonesians, I don't think they did anything wrong. Indonesia is a country ruled by law right? Is there a law requiring everyone to get along and be friends? What exactly provokes the Indonesians? I just personally feel that not speaking the same language or come from the same cultural background is enough reason to hate. At least it isn't in the United States.

[Guest Anonymous]

[edited]Comments on moderation to me via PM please. Roddy[/edited]

[akdn]

What exactly provokes the Indonesians? I just personally feel that not speaking the same language or come from the same cultural background is enough reason to hate.

In Indonesia, Chinese are generally perceived to be unaffected by economic difficulty, and indeed may even be blamed for it. This is all the provocation a desperate person needs.

I mentioned the language point to show how barriers can come between people of different cultures, and how these barriers can prevent reconciliation.

By the way, Chinese are by no means the only ethnic group in Indonesia who prefer to use their own language. There are many, many, many... each staking their own claims to cultures distinct from the overall 'Indonesian' nationality the government promotes.

A side note: You mentioned laws. Indonesia isn't exactly praised by the international community for it's upstanding legal system!

[roddy]

I just personally feel that not speaking the same language or come from the same cultural background is enough reason to hate.

Often it isn't - economic factors play a big part. A different ethnic group which is considered wealthy, or to be 'stealing jobs' will encounter more hatred.

Roddy

[edited in(oh, my edit button's getting plenty of use tonight)]'considered wealthy' isn't actually accurate enough. Wealthy, and 'different enough', and exclusive (in that they only deal with members of their own culture and don't 'spread the wealth'), plus living in a society where there are people poor enough to be angry. That's not a very good description, but it's a long time since I studied this[/edit]

[akdn]

Here's something on the subject of discrimination:

http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~delacova/indonesia/chinese-indonesians.htm

I remember actually reading this article at the time it was published. The reason the topic was being discussed in 2002, was that Megawati (newly-elected president of Indonesia then) had just announced that Chinese New Year was to be an officially-recognised national holiday. The Chinese had long petitioned for this.

This one's quite good, too:

http://www.huaren.org/diaspora/asia/indonesia/news/111102-01.html

[holyman]

I was born in a Western country. I am as white as freshly fallen snow. I have lived in China and other Asian countries for many years. I am a resident of China. I speak Chinese moderately well. I eat Chinese food. I watch Chinese TV. I have Chinese friends. I have been to more places in China than most people. When people ask me what country I am from, I say China. I culturally identify with China. I am Chinese, no?

2 things. first the idea of 'chinese' as being culturally related to china regardless of race is the older concept. after 1943 its probably different. second, to be culturally related to china usually means 2 things in ancient times. u dress like them and u behave like them. its not just like u eat some chinese food, speak a little chinese and have a few chinese frens.

the idea of overseas chinese are citizens of china is there bcos before 1943 all chinese are not allowed to migrate and become citizens of other countries, particularly western countries and their colonies(which means the entire world outside china). this ban/discrimination was not from the chinese govt but from western countries. so therefore all chinese, mainland or overses, study, travel or sold as coolies in other countries, have only one identity: chinese citizens. after the chinese won a major battle against the japanese in 1941(or 42, can't remember properly) at wuhan, hubei province when the rest of the world was suffering defeat from the axis, america first declared the lift on this ban and agreed a loan to china in support of them fighting the japanese, gradually followed by the other countries. so after the war chinese are allowed to migrate, and thus they can claim themselves as the citizens of their residing country instead of china. but for the older folks who were born before the war, this idea never change. they still see themselves as chinese citizens.

in ancient china, yes, to be chinese will require u to be well versed in the language, dress like them and follow their way of life. therefore since han dynasty there are ppl from middle east, huns and other minorities who served in the chinese courts and are all considered chinese. in western han dynasty, a lot of generals were originally huns, and so are some court officials.

[skylee]

Thanks holyman, I like your post (I have started to dislike this forum).

[Quest]

(I have started to dislike this forum).

Did all the uninformative and childish arguments make you dislike this forum? I have observed the debate for a couple of days and finally decided to join in. I am sorry if the debate lowered the quality of this forum. I would like to apologize. You are cool skylee, please dont let a few posts discourage you from coming here.

[holyman]

What exactly provokes the Indonesians? I just personally feel that not speaking the same language or come from the same cultural background is enough reason to hate. At least it isn't in the United States.

i think most people got the whole picture wrong. indonesia was in good terms with china since the 1950's, during sukarno's time. china used to loan money and provide aids to indonesia. then suharto took over and start cultural 'cleansing', he was afraid that the chinese will run the country like the dutch. indonesia was a dutch colony for more than 300yrs. they wanted badly to rule themselves. the chinese were like less than 10% of the population. chinese were being penalised, all chinese publications were not allowed, all chinese had to have an indonesian name, and all chinese festivals, holidays, religions etc are prohibited. ppl suspected to be communists, or sympathized with communists, were either jailed or secretly executed. that would be like 1/2 million deaths and m.i.a.. the chinese then became 'cocooned' to themselves. before that they interacted more with the locals.

had the indons over-reacted? maybe, maybe not, depends on which side u take. think about that, the chinese were taking up like 7-8% of the total indon population, but besides those siezed by the ruling party, corrupted officials, the military etc, the chinese controlled like 90% of the remaining money. think, if a minority race in your country controlled 90% of what is left for the population, how would u see them? if a minority race, like the mogols or manchus or tibetians, controlled 90% of the money in china, how would the ethnic han ppl react, esp when there was a economic crisis? but of course, why the chinese controlled the economy and not the indons, that's another topic. for now i can only say its cultural differences.

was indonesia always anti-china? on the surface it seemed so. but as we all know, indon bought submarines from russia long time ago like china did. too bad they didnt have the spare parts, neither they had the blueprints and specs of the parts. so where did they eventually get to replace those parts after some wear and tear? the choice is clear. of course this was never in the open. and did the middlemen got any commissions, is another mystery.

[akdn]

chinese were being penalised, all chinese publications were not allowed, all chinese had to have an indonesian name, and all chinese festivals, holidays, religions etc are prohibited. ppl suspected to be communists, or sympathized with communists, were either jailed or secretly executed. that would be like 1/2 million deaths and m.i.a.. the chinese then became 'cocooned' to themselves. before that they interacted more with the locals.

Yeah, good points there. Also, the study of Mandarin was outlawed during those years. I hope I wasn't suggesting that the Chinese had 'cocooned' themselves for no reason!

Clearly, it's a long process to right the wrongs of the Suharto regine, and to bring these communities back together. It needs action from both sides. Laws that discriminate against the Chinese, and fuel bad-feeling, are being repealed (The study of Mandarin was legalised around four years ago, Chinese publications are readily available there, and Chinese New Year is an official national holiday, to take some examples). If the Chinese community stepped out of their 'cocoon' they may find the welcome warmer than they expect. At least, I would like to think so.

[akdn]

To Kulong, and other overseas Chinese:

How do you feel about the expression 华侨人？Does it carry any any special positive or negative connotations for you? Which do you prefer to use: 华侨人 or 中国人?