中國人 -- what does it mean?

[Guest Anonymous]

To Kulong' date=' and other overseas Chinese:

How do you feel about the expression 华侨人？Does it carry any any special positive or negative connotations for you? Which do you prefer to use: 华侨人 or 中国人?

Actually it's just 華僑, without the 人.

I don't have any feelings toward that word except that it means "oversea Chinese".

I personally prefer to be called 中國人 and not 華僑 although I wouldn't be offended or anything if I were called 華僑 because that's what I am as well. But it's like when you see an American living in another country, how many people would call him or her an "oversea American"?

[holyman]

To Kulong' date=' and other overseas Chinese:

How do you feel about the expression 华侨人？Does it carry any any special positive or negative connotations for you? Which do you prefer to use: 华侨人 or 中国人?

its 华侨 not 华侨人. 侨 means ppl living outside their hometown or country of origin.

as i said, after the war '中国人' should only strictly refer to chinese citizens. there are ethnic chinese all around the world but they dun hold a chinese passport. these are '华人' or ethnic chinese. my indonesian friend, who is a 华人, asked me about this some time ago. my reply was depends on who u are talking to, a freigner or ur fellow countrymen. to a foreigner, u are first an indonesian, then if he probe further u can say that u are an indonesian chinese(or chinese indonesian according to some western language habits. the chinese tends to put country in front of race). if u are talking to ur fellow countrymen, it is obvious that u are all indonesian citizens and the question is just for classifying ur race, u can simply say u are a 华人, or chinese.

this question arise among us overseas chinese bcos when we are in china, sometimes we tend to defend our country when local chinese made ridiculous remarks on international affairs. then they said we are traitors cos we are ethnic chinese and we should side with china. to us its absurd cos its just manupulating words and definitions. our country fed us, educated us and provided us with job, security and identity, why should we side with china who basically give us nothing? as the saying goes, dun bite the hand that feed u. our ties with china is that it is the homeland of our forefathers we are more or less culturally and racially related to it.

[smithsgj]

Holyman this is interesting. I'm now wondering: what is an "ethnic Chinese" or 华人? Is there a Chinese ethnicity? Or a Chinese race?

No. As Kulong pointed out, there are 56 ethnicities in China, and they all belong to the Mongoloid race along with Mongolians and the peoples of a whole bunch of other countries. Not that terms like mongoloid and caucasian are useful for anything, but still.

So is it only the majority Han ethnicity who qualify as ethnic Chinese? If so, the Dai and Mongols and Chaoxian in the territory normally known as the PRC don't qualify.

If not, the Mongols in outer Mongolia and the Koreans in Korea, and the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala are ethnic Chinese too!

Of course, the only empirically valid way of classifying the human species is by linguistic affiliation, and even that doesn't always work.

In actuality, the term "Chinese" when applied to non-Chinese means one of three things:

1. It's used as a race label, like black or white. Equal opportunity forms in the UK always have this category;

2. It's used to make a political statement about the territory that should be included in some putative Chinese nation;

3. It's used by some to assert their "identity", for reasons and in situations which have yet to be revealed to me (but which in Indonesia include disparaging the non-"Chinese" population)

[Guest Anonymous]

As we have said many times before, 中國人 isn't a race or ethnic identity but a cultural one.

As Holyman has pointed out, there have been non-Han people considered Chinese in history.

I was born in a Western country. I am as white as freshly fallen snow. I have lived in China and other Asian countries for many years. I am a resident of China. I speak Chinese moderately well. I eat Chinese food. I watch Chinese TV. I have Chinese friends. I have been to more places in China than most people. When people ask me what country I am from, I say China. I culturally identify with China. I am Chinese, no?

I would say if Green Pea chooses to say he's 中國人, I would say why not? But he can't claim to be a 中華人民共和國公民 (Chinese *CITIZEN*) unless his passport says so.

The bottom line is, the 中國人 identity exists without a question. It's a cultural identity and not a racial or ethnic one. It's not an identity forced on anyone (or at least it shouldn't be) because no one likes to be told what he or she is or isn't.

[Green Pea]

I would say if Green Pea chooses to say he's 中國人, I would say why not? But he can't claim to be a 中華人民共和國公民 (Chinese *CITIZEN*) unless his passport says so.

Err...no, I am claiming to be a Chinese citizen. I have an identity card. I can live and work the rest of my life in China without a visa.

I think most Chinese "citizens" do not have passports, so that is hardly a qualifying characteristic.

[Guest Anonymous]

Err...no, I am claiming to be a Chinese citizen. I have an identity card. I can live and work the rest of my life in China without a visa.

I'm not sure how things work in the PRC but does that mean you're a permanent resident of PRC or a formal citizen? Either way, whether you're a *CITIZEN* of a country or not all depends on what it says on paper. However, your cultural identity is completely saparate.

Many people immigrate to another country and obtain citizenship there but don't adopt the local culture. This happens because either they're just too old and don't have the energy to learn a new language and adapt to an alien culture or they are younger but mainly immigrated for business opportunities and have only adopted enough of the alien culture to do business. This is especially apparent in the United States where there are large Hispanic communities in the south and they never have to learn English. I also knew a couple British and Americans who lived in Beijing for over 4 years but barely knew any Chinese and only know enough about the Chinese culture to get around.

I think most Chinese "citizens" do not have passports, so that is hardly a qualifying characteristic.

They don't because they don't need to travel out of country. Not every American citizen has an American passport. But they have the right to apply for a passport while non-citizens of People's Republic of China can't.

[akdn]

The term 中國人 can be used in the same way to refer to a person of the territory administered from Beijing. It can also be extended to cover people in territories that the speaker thinks should be included but currently are not.

It can also be extended to mean someone who lives outside China and is of Chinese... Race? Ethnicity? Culture? Identity? Parents? Grandparents?

It's a silly facet of an otherwise perfectly good word' date=' and we should stop using it in this way.[/quote']

I don't think it's so silly. And this facet is not confined to Chinese is it? I believe there are many Irish and Italians in America. I'm sure people *could* adapt if necessary ('I'm Irish. Well, I don't mean really Irish, because I was born in America. But my great- grandparents came across in 1836. I suppose you could say I'm'ethnically Irish'). But usually it's not necessary, is it? I mean, come on, when Kulong says he's Chinese you know what he *really* means, don't you? And isn't that one of the maxims of conversation? The speaker should only use terms that he judges the listener will be able to understand. He (correctly) assumes that people on this forum will be able to distinguish which meaning of 'Chinese' he refers to. It's all about context, after all.

[holyman]

Holyman this is interesting. I'm now wondering: what is an "ethnic Chinese" or 华人? Is there a Chinese ethnicity? Or a Chinese race?

no, esp in anthropology sense(but of course, modern anthropology is based on western classifications). in my understanding the meaning of 'chinese' changed thruout history. in ancient times it refers to the ppl living in or near the 'central plains', meaning excluding the huns, mongols, manchus, bachviets, sichuan, guangxi etc. but as china expand and conqurered surrounding areas, context changed, so now it includes all the minorities.

what i mean by 'ethnic chinese' or 华人 are those ppl outside china whose ancestors can be traced back to china, who speak a language related to mandarin or chinese dialects, whose lifestyle or customs still related to chinese culture. i am not talking about chinese citizens or 中国人 maybe i should still use the word 'overseas chinese', but since i suggested 'chinese' to be 'chinese citizens only', i think i'll have to come up with a new term. i have this feeling 'overseas chinese' or 'overseas something' usually refers to the 1st generation who moved out of china. example i am a han born outside china, i dun think the word 'overseas' fits me very much.

if we use the classifications i mentioned in previous post, the different ppl in china should be chinese han, chinese tibetians, chinese mongols if they are living in china and holding a chinese passport/nationality. out of china, all are 'ethnic chinese'. dalai was from china, he was born in china before the war. so i think the term 'chinese tibetian' would fit him pretty well.

as for the passport, they'll only register for one if they have to travel out of china. if not they have an identity card to use in china. if they travel out of their hometown to another city for more than a week they have to report to the immigration office or police in the destination city to apply for a temporary residential pass to stay in that city.

[holyman]

The speaker should only use terms that he judges the listener will be able to understand. He (correctly) assumes that people on this forum will be able to distinguish which meaning of 'Chinese' he refers to. It's all about context, after all.

yeah, it's all about context...

[smithsgj]

Can't argue with that. "You shall know a word by the company it keeps."

[Ian_Lee]

The origin and meaning of the terms "Chinese" and "Zhongguoren" are different even though they are always overlapping in usage.

"Chinese" has been used by Europeans for millenium to refer to the kingdom where they got the silk from the Orient. Some historians said that it generated from the dynasty "Chin" that dated about 2,000 years ago. Other historians said that it generated from the term "Cathay" which referred to the Liao Dynasty which was set up in North China 1,200 years ago by the highly Sinicized Khitans.

On the other hand, "Zhongguo" -- "Middle Kingdom" or "Middle Country" can be either a modern or ancient term.

In the "Romance of Three Kingdoms" which narrated events that dated back 1,700 years ago, the court in Wei Kingdom which occupied central China (i.e. Henan and Shanxi) always referred themselves as "Central Kingdom" and downgraded Wu and Zu Kingdoms at their periphery as rebels that needed to be brought back into its fold. (Huh! Sounds exactly like the tone how Beijing speaks towards Taipei nowadays.)

But for the modern term "Zhongguo", it only emerged after the modern concept of nation-state was born in the 19th century. I thought it was Sun Yat Sen whom invented the term "Zhongguo" after he set up the organization Tung Men Hui in Tokyo in 1907.

[Ian_Lee]

So who is a "Chinese"?

Even though n English term, it sounds the same. But in Chinese, there are different terms for "Chinese". They are:

(1) "Zhongguoren" -- Since "Guo" is related to the nation/country, this term has to do more with nationality. So everyone who holds a PRC or ROC passport is a Chinese national as well as a Zhongguoren. So those Tibetans inside PRC are Zhongguoren and President Chen Shui Bian is also a Zhongguoren. Of course, the former is a Zhongguoren as well as a Tibetan and the latter is a Zhongguoren as well as a Taiwanese.

(2) "Hua Ren" -- this term applies to all those ethnic overseas Chinese who don't hold any type of Chinese passport.

[smithsgj]

Your definition of Hua Ren is circular. You say it means "Chinese", then you use "ethnic overseas Chinese" to explain it.

Is the Dalai Lama a Hua Ren? If a-bian lived overseas and didn't have a Taiwan passport would he be?

[Ian_Lee]

Smithsgj:

You raised an interesting question.

But the same dilemma applies to minorities of other countries in a 3rd country.

For instance, if some Ainu or Okinawans reside in Europe, will they be classified as ethnic Japanese?

But any way, in the case of Hua Ren, it is more related to self-identification. If Ah Bian resides overseas, he can identify himself as either overseas Chinese or overseas Taiwanese.

Actually the the Overseas Chinese Affairs bureau that Taipei established in many countries have a hard time to cater to the interests of these two different groups.

[holyman]

Is the Dalai Lama a Hua Ren? If a-bian lived overseas and didn't have a Taiwan passport would he be?

no. i think i stated my views on this earlier. he was born in china before the war, so he's automatically a chinese citizen, since chinese arent allowed to migrate before the war. now he's at most an overseas chinese cos he's the first generation outside china. but because of his pro independence stand we hardly link the word 'chinese' to him.

[holyman]

"Chinese" has been used by Europeans for millenium to refer to the kingdom where they got the silk from the Orient. Some historians said that it generated from the dynasty "Chin" that dated about 2,000 years ago. Other historians said that it generated from the term "Cathay" which referred to the Liao Dynasty which was set up in North China 1,200 years ago by the highly Sinicized Khitans.

On the other hand, "Zhongguo" -- "Middle Kingdom" or "Middle Country" can be either a modern or ancient term.

the word 'zhongguo' is much older than 'china'. its ancient meaning is 'the capital'(of zhou dynasty) and its surrounding area, which is present shannxi, henan area. later on it refers the areas bounded by the greatwall to the north, the east sea, mountains separating sichuan t0 the west and the 5 mountains separating fujian and canton to the south. the word 'china' originates from india, it was 'cina-' something, a pretty long word, so the westerners took 'cina' or 'sina' for short. then it transformed to 'china'(prounounced chin-na).

[smithsgj]

Is the Dalai Lama a Hua Ren?

no. i think i stated my views on this earlier. ... now he's at most an overseas chinese.

[Guest Anonymous]

Well, I'm an ABC (American Born Chinese), so I'm referred to as "jook sing jai." I can speak fairly fluent Cantonese, but it is obvious I was not born in HK (parents are from there).

I guess when speaking to Non-Chinese Americans, we just say we are Chinese. However, when speaking to Chinese, or even other Asians, we break it down to regions, such as HK'ese, Cantonese, Shanghainese, Beijingese, etc.

If a White person mistakens us to be Japanese or Korean, or whatever, it's somewhat acceptable, but god forbid if another Asian were to call a Taiwanese chick an HK girl or vice versa! There will be all hell to pay!

[Amdir_Flassion]

The term 'Chinese' can mean different things. As mentioned before by others, it can mean a citizen of China (ROC or PRC), or anything related culturally to Chinese people. So the distinction is whether it refers to nationality or ethnicity.

I'm born in Australia, but my parents are from HK. When I say I'm Chinese, I mean Hua Ren or 華人 - a person of Chinese descent or one who follows Chinese culture

When it comes to the term Zhong Guo Ren or 中國人 I usually say it to describe a citizen of China ( the one who has the papers), nothing else.

[Ian_Lee]

Actually all the Taiwanese (Mainland descendant or local) I meet overseas all say that they are Chinese.

Most commonly it happens when we discussed some hot topics (non-political), he/she usually said that "We (he/she and I) Chinese (Chungkuoren) have a different way of doing/thinking/working apart form Americans/Canadians."

But actually they mean White Americans/Canadians since they are naturalized Americans/Canadians themselves.