How can I improve knowledge of "word order"?

[ChTTay]

I have been going over some word order stuff with my tutor and find it hard to get in my head or it gets mixed up quite easily. I mean things like S + V + O. In particular we have been looking at HSK4 and 5 questions where you must arrange the sentence into the correct order. I find that I know some intuitively but others I really just need the "rules".

Are there any methods , books , exercises that can help me really get a grasp of this? I feel I won't be able to progress above my current level until I've got to grips with this.

[Koxinga]

This one is simple. You just haven't done enough repetitions of the grammar point you haven't internalized yet.

 

Once you understand the grammar point, find (or make, or make someone make) a bunch of sentences which contain the grammar point you have trouble with. If you read or hear the sentences enough times, the grammar point will become natural for you and you won't have to think too hard about how to make a sentence based upon it again.

 

When it comes to the actual test, try to look for keywords of grammar points and it should be easier that way.

 

*This method is based upon my limited experience and hasn't been thoroughly tested yet

[Demonic_Duck]

Could you give examples of sentences that you found difficult and couldn't intuitively grasp?

[smartmandarin]

This is actually a very good question

Most of my students have the same trouble with Chinese word order.

 

If you are a beginner, here is the basic word order for your reference.

 

1. For a very simple sentence structure : S V O

    Chinese word order works as English.

 

    Example:  我 喝 咖啡.。 I drink coffee.

 

2. For a longer sentence, the structure always goes like this

 

example: I have to go to Taipei  to work by train tomorrow.

 

                我明天得搭火车去台北工作。

 

subject + time + how + place + verb / purpose.

 

 

But if you are more than a beginner, you will find there are many different Chinese structures to learn.

For example, if you happen to learn a Chinese grammatical word "把“ or you have learned more than that.

Here is one little tip you can try.

 

First, you need to understand the the structure, then try to picture your sentence

For example : I already put that cup of coffee on the table.

 

我已经          把          那杯咖啡                    放           在桌子上           了。

I already   + 把  +   that cup of coffee   +     put     +  on the table  +   了

 

By picturing your sentence, it means try to visualize it.

when you put the coffee on the table

 

first -  you see that cup of coffee

second - you "put" the coffee

third - then the coffee is "on the table"

 

 

so if you are learning with a Mandarin teacher, then ask your teacher try to make sentences visualize for you.

 

Using either pictures or actions, it depends on which structure you are learning.

 

But if you are learing on your own, try to see more examples and picture it by yourself.

 

Hope that helps!

[Ruben von Zwack]

I think if ChTTay is working on HSK 4 and 5 questions, then the sentences would be a bit trickier. I've only taken the 3, and I found this one hard, for example - and as I said, it's just level 3:

    这次会议在2010年冬天举行。   /   在2010年冬天举行这次会议。

[smartmandarin]

Mm.... There are too many sentence structures when peopple reach to level 4.

I guess it really takes an effort to practice speaking and writing then to make it become your second nature.

  

[Tamu]

I think I understand your issue. Word order, or "Chinese grammar" in general, seems to get written off as not too hard. Chinese doesn't have any conjugations, declinations, or genders, verbs don't really have tenses or aspects, parts of speech are very amorphous, etc. So the standard rap becomes "there is no Chinese grammar", and all the difficulties are ascribed to tones and characters. But I've found that this lack of rigid, formal grammar at the beginning of studying actually makes it trickier later on to correctly express your meaning in a way which is natural-sounding to a Chinese native.  I find that I often I make a sentence which native speakers tell me isn't wrong per se - it's grammatically correct - but it isn't how it would be expressed in real Chinese. It's especially the case when I say a string of a few sentences.

 

I saw a description by renzhe here which very succinctly describes this point:

 

 

... Indo-European languages typically have complicated morphology, laid out in tables, classified by grammatical gender, numerous declensions and conjugations, etc. Most of this fits on a few sheets of A4 papers which are memorized easily enough, but require mental gymnastics when forming sentences. After a while, though, these things tend to "click" and you're done with it and move on. I'd argue that you can learn all of German grammar required for passing the C2 exam in about 6 months, including using them in conversation. Few rules, which are complicated, and breaking it all in.

Not so much with Chinese. There are thousands of grammar patterns for expressing all sorts of things, and you learn them one by one. You don't get a convenient sheet of laminated paper summarizing ALL grammar, like you get for European languages. Instead of you get a dictionary. Or counting words, you learn those while you're alive. As a beginner, this seems simple -- you learn several simple rules, and avoid the nasty morphology. But after three years, your French-learning friends have totally mastered conjugations and don't think about them, and you're still learning grammar patterns and counting words by the dozen.

 

My solution has been to memorize "natural-sounding" sentences. I've used several sources:

 

- Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar, by Claudia Ross... This is a grammar book which covers a broad range of grammar patterns and usage situations. There are several examples for every usage. When I first started learning, I put every Chinese sentence from the book into an Anki deck, then revised until I could instantly produce word-for-word each Chinese sentence when prompted with the English translation.

 

- Conversations with speakers. I record down as many conversations as I can, and later put native speakers' sentences in Anki. Also, I ask native speakers to point out every odd thing I say and give me a more natural-sounding way to say it. I put all these into Anki and memorize.

 

- TV shows, Chinese documentaries (my favorite now is a documentary on food I discovered thanks to Tysond's very clever study methodology he describes here). I put many sentences into Anki and memorize them.

 

 

All this definitely helps with your issue of getting a better grasp of word order, sentence patterns, and grammar for testing purposes. But a test is just a test; for the real goal of speaking naturally, I've found that all this has really helped me improve my level of natural speech. Knowing the grammar book's phrases cold has been incredibly useful in constructing my own sentences on the fly, and the sentences from native-speakers and TV have been helpful for getting nice turns of phrase. I use some pattern or phrase I've memorized in essentially every conversation I have. In fact, every sentence I say in any free-flowing conversation is probably influenced by what I've memorized.

 

I think it'd be great to be able to memorize an A4 page with all grammar rules and then freely produce natural-sounding sentences, but unfortunately Chinese isn't that type of language.

 

Everyone has their own ways. This way is definitely brute-force and labor-intensive to memorize so many full sentences, but actively learning the correct forms I'm exposed to seems to be the best way to really drill it in very quickly. Passive exposure will sink in over a long-term and gradually make my speech more natural-sounding, but for me at least, this active memorization has yielded quick progress so far.

[alanmd]

I've seen the book Common Chinese Patterns 330 recommended a few times for HSK 4-6. Each pattern contains an explanation, examples, dialogues, and exercises. I've used it a bit, but a lot of it is a bit too advanced for me at present. I wrote a blog post where I listed the patterns by the HSK level of the characters in each one: http://www.hskhsk.com/2/post/2013/06/common-chinese-patterns-330-by-hsk-level.html