Why are Taiwanese men considered to be 娘?

[Demonic_Duck]

A lot of mainland people I've talked to have this idea that Taiwanese men are very 娘 (girly), not like their manly mainland counterparts. Now, I'll admit I can count on the fingers of one finger how many Taiwanese guys I've known as friends*, but it seems to me pretty likely that this stereotype doesn't have any basis in fact. Is it true, even as a broad generalisation, that Taiwanese guys are particularly 娘? Or is it complete rubbish? And if it's the latter, where does the idea come from?

 

*And even then, he was an overseas Chinese. It's true he was kinda a "pretty boy", but as a result he seemed to get a lot of female interest. He was also big into parkour, which I'd say is a pretty manly activity.

[OneEye]

In Taipei at least, there is some basis for the stereotype. Taiwanese guys tend to be more masculine in the south, but in Taipei a lot of them are pretty 娘. The ones that aren't are pretty 宅. Others tend to be socially awkward and can't seem to quit pointing out that yes, I am indeed a foreigner, and yes, I am speaking Chinese. Those that are neither are few and far between, in my experience. I personally find Taiwanese girls much easier to interact with than Taiwanese guys. They tend to have traveled more than their male counterparts and thus are not as subject to some of the ridiculous racial stereotypes, and they're generally more sociable and easier to be friends with than guys here. I do have a few guy friends, but very few.

[Demonic_Duck]

Hmm, very interesting. Well, not that there's anything wrong per se with 娘 (nor indeed with 宅). Anyway, what sociological causes would lead to such a situation?

[OneEye]

This is all just based on my experience with the people I know here, and of course it's wildly generalized, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

I think Taiwanese boys are coddled and babied much more than girls. I don't know why. They also tend to succumb more to societal pressures to finish college and start a career immediately (because "you're the man and so you must"), whereas girls tend to be free to more or less do what they want because they usually live with their parents until they get married. They can travel, they can work (and most of their income is disposable), they can go to grad school, they can pretty much do what they want until they get married, so they tend to do those things, thus expanding their horizons and becoming more interesting people. I'd say 80% of the Taiwanese people looking for language exchanges (legitimate ones, not just hookups) are girls. I've met very few guys who speak passable English, much less any other foreign language, and I know a ton of girls who speak English well, and also maybe passable French or Japanese too.

 

As far as the effeminateness, I really don't know why. Sometimes I think it's just my own cultural bias (I grew up in the southeastern US), but a lot of my Taiwanese friends agree that many guys in Taipei are pretty effeminate.

 

Edit: This might be relevant. 

[Meng Lelan]

That's it. That goes into a new thread for video parodies I am going to start up. omg his impersonation of a Japanese was completely apt. 

[skylee]

That youtube video is good. Thank you.

[Ruben von Zwack]

I'm not sure if it's ok to post here what I'm going to say, cause this topic is tongue-in-cheek obviously, and I don't want to ruin it, but it's something that has been disturbing me for quite a while now: A handful of Taiwanese guys I know are pretty violent - as in, domestic violence.

They are all under 30, handsome, educated, always dressed sharp, well spoken and funny - so who knows, some outsider, for example mainlander, may look at them and think, man they're so 娘!

 

One is even beating his mother. Everyone knows it, so I guess even though everyone says it's bad, it must socially acceptable in a way, otherwise these guys, and this one in particular, would be hiding it better.

 

My former flat mate was a Taiwanese girl and said to me domestic violence is wide spread among young people (like, under 30) in Taiwan and guys would think it proves their manliness. It's just her words, of course, and I have no idea if she was over generalising. The same girl was punched, choked by the neck, and had her mobile phone smashed, by a particularly handsome Taiwanese guy though. I haven't been at the fight itself, so I got to take her word for what happened, but she came home to me directly from there, so I saw the state she was in.

 

Just... odd!

[ouyangjun]

It's interesting who you ask this question to and the responses you get.  I asked my Chinese friend from Shanghai why Chinese people feel the Taiwanese men are 娘 .

 

It starts with needing to understand that in mainland China the men in the north are considered the most manly of men or the 纯爷们儿.  In mainland China the feeling is that the men from the southern part of China, especially Shanghai, are considered more 娘.  The most obvious is they way the men speak in the north sounds more manly, they smoke cigarettes and drink baijiu, they eat lots of meat (or other "man" food), their actions/behavior is more manly all-around.  In a place like Shanghai, their accent is more 娘, the Shanghainese dress nicer and care more about their appearance (some men even may get a manicure), they don't drink excessive amounts of baijiu compared to the north, when they eat crab they eat it with elegance - where a guy from the north will tear through it and be done in 5 minutes, and they won't swear and use as much dirty language as their northern counterparts.  These actions are some of the stereotypes that lead to the belief in the mainland that the northern men are more manly, and the southern men (especially Shanghai) are more 娘.

 

Take the above behaviors of the Shanghainese a step further with the Taiwanese, and the mainland feeling is that if you compare Shanghai to Taiwan, that Taiwan is even more 娘 than Shanghai.  Their actions and way of speaking is more 娘 than the Shanghainese.  So the ranking from real man to girly man is:

North China - Real Man 纯爷们儿

Southern China

Taiwan - Girly 娘娘腔

 

But it goes both ways.  The Shanghainese look at their northern counterparts as being a bit more 土包子 (hillbilly, no class).  Some Shanghainese feel they are more sophisticated than their northern counterparts… and I'm sure some Taiwanese feel the same way when they compare themselves to the rest of the mainland.

[Demonic_Duck]

@Ruben von Zwack: well, that is indeed pretty disturbing, if it's in any way indicative of a trend.

 

@ouyangjun: makes sense. So, basically, Taiwanese tend to be more "meterosexual", and mainlanders (particularly northerners) tend to be more "macho".

[gato]

How about English vs Scottish? Or Germans vs Spanish?

Can we perhaps better fine tune our criteria for 娘-ism? If being better dressed is 娘, then most European men would be much more 娘 than Taiwanese or mainland guys. Is it the voice? Or maybe the way they move their shoulders?

[Demonic_Duck]

Well, it certainly seems like the stereotype also includes speaking - including tone of voice and expressions used - for example, "你想怎样？" is seen as a very 娘 thing to say, and also something that Taiwanese guys supposedly say a lot. The question is - is the phrase 娘 because Taiwanese guys say it, or do Taiwanese guys say it because it's 娘?

[skylee]

This thread has reminded me of the old thread about 北人豪邁 南人風流 -> http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/2056-what-does-%E5%8C%97%E4%BA%BA%E8%B1%AA%E9%82%81-%E5%8D%97%E4%BA%BA%E9%A2%A8%E6%B5%81-actually-mean/

Both 豪邁 and 風流 are neutral or even positive terms in that context, whereas I think 娘 is quite negative.

[Demonic_Duck]

I'd say that people who say it about Taiwanese folks certainly aren't paying them a compliment, but as with any word there's no reason you have to agree with its intended connotations. If "娘" means "girly" and "girly" means like a girl, then what's so bad about being a girl? 如果“娘”的意思就是“像姑娘似的”，那为什么当姑娘算是个坏事？

[renzhe]

I think that some of this is rooted in the north-south thing, but surely, a lot of it is also based on the difference between Mainland and Taiwanese mainstream media.

I'd be careful about sweeping generalisations about actual people, but surely everyone can agree that Taiwanese mainstream entertainment is the most 娘 thing on the planet? Music, TV shows, magazines.... Even the hardcore gangsters in TV shows would be too camp for a Spice Girls movie. This is what the Mainland people see, and this is what they base their opinion on.

The Mainland media, on the other hand, is either about gloomy topics of corruption and housing troubles, or about fighting the Japanese, or about fighting the Manchu, or about fighting the Mongols....