http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/

[Myriam]

I need your opinion about this matter :

1: Cantonese Discussion

Discussion about learning Cantonese, Chinese writing, Chinese culture etc.

Writing Cantonese in Vietnamese script

Posted by: no_character (IP Logged)

Date: Apr 2, 2005 07:22

I am one who thinks writing Chinese (the language) in Chinese characters is the biggest shackle holding back the Chinese people. I would love nothing more if Chinese language could be written not by characters, but by some other means yet not invented.

Don't cut short this discussion and say there is already pinyin. Pinyin is NOT a replacement to the Chinese characters. Its use is limited. I am talking about a completely new way of writing Chinese that eliminate the use of characters, like the Korean or the Vietnamese.

Having thought about the problem for awhile, I gave up the idea of thinking Chinese language as one language since there are so many dialects. I gave up trying to come up with one representation for all the dialects. Instead, being Cantonese, I thought about what can be done to write Cantonese without characters.

It occur to me, since Cantonese dialect is close to the Vietnamese language and the Vietnamese people have adopted the French alphabet to represent their language, is it possible to use the same alphabet to represent Cantonese?

You might ask why not use the English alphabet since English is so universally used in the world today.

I like the French alphabet because of the accents can be used to indicate the tones. Also, since Cantonese is close to Vietnamese, using the same representation seems natural.

Can anybody shed more light on this topic?

Re: Writing Cantonese in Vietnamese script

Posted by: Ying / Myriam (IP Logged)

Date: Apr 3, 2005 15:28

I WOULD BE DEVASTATED IF A SYSTEM LIKE THAT WAS INFORCED!

It's sad enough that the communists had chosen to simplify characters : how do you think Taiwanese are learning their mother tongue ? Do you think they've got special superior brains that allow them to learn complicated characters?

If you don't want to learn Chinese as it's ought to be learnt, then JUST DON'T DO IT!

For LIFE's sake or for God's sake if you are a Christian : why should we change systems to accommodate the whiners?

I speak fluent French as I've been educated in France since the age of four and I would not agree to some simplification of the spelling - why do you think people have difficulties with spelling nowadays :

it's because they do not read enough ! Please allow some time to think about this : how do you think our brain assimilates new words with their right spelling and meaning?

I am learning Mandarin in both simplified and traditional forms : SPELLING HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE MEANING OF WORDS !!! Ever heard of Etymology ?

And by the way I speak Cantonese too and I was born in Vietnam, that is why I feel so concerned by your post.

What they did to Vietnam can't be undone and Vietnamese people can learn Chinese characters as long as you don't blow the system to pieces...

To those who can speak English or French and think Chinese characters are beautiful and that Etymology is an inherent feature of a language ( EVEN ESPERANTO HAS AN ETYMOLOGY : it sprang off European languages, it's not as if it had been constructed out of a mathematical system) PLEASE BACK BE UP HERE !:

PAS DE NIVELATION PAR LE BAS !

LA NIVELATION PAR LE BAS, ON N'EN VEUT PAS !

Don't accommodate the whiners, be patient with them and they will know what 'effort' means and they will be grateful to you for not having given up.

Re: Writing Cantonese in Vietnamese script

Posted by: no_character (IP Logged)

Date: Apr 4, 2005 04:58

Some people, like ying/myriam, are arrogant about Chinese being hard. David Moser mentions it:

“Most Chinese people will cheerfully acknowledge that their language is hard, maybe the hardest on earth. (Many are even proud of this, in the same way some New Yorkers are actually proud of living in the most unlivable city in America.) Maybe all Chinese people deserve a medal just for being born Chinese.”

I think that is the wrong attitude. We should work together to make a change for the better. I like to refer readers to the following book, The Writing on the Wall: How Asian Orthography Curbs Creativity by Hannas, Wm. C. I am not sure Chinese character is the total cause of the lack of creativity is Asia, but I think it adds to the problem more than we care to admit.

I am an amateur of the lowest rank on Chinese language reform and do not pretend to know how to proceed with the reform. It would be great if we can have on going discussion on this subject.

"LACK OF CREATIVITY IN ASIA" ? ? ? Where did he get that from ? I am not sure this guy is Chinese but I sure do think he will need some serious investigation before stating things like that.

You can read the whole thread @ http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/phorum/read.php?1,35783

[wushijiao]

I think this topic, although interesting, has been discussed to death. Here's an old thread:

http://www.chinese-forums.com/viewtopic.php?t=1692&highlight=david+moser

Reading that though, I realized another advatage for characters: people can't write in all CAPITAL LETTERS using characters! That alone might be worth not going alphabetized.

[roddy]

If you want to try and start another topic on simplification / romanisation / whatever, you're going to have to convince me you have some new and fascinating angle that we haven't already gone over in great detail in the Reading and Writing forum. Which appears to be where this should have been posted.

Closing