How provincial has your China experience been?

[roddy]

Writing this got me thinking - most of the long-term foreigner-in-China folk I know all took a path of starting off somewhere in the provinces, and then moving in two or three steps towards Beijing or Shanghai. 

 

I did years in Wuxi and Harbin before hitting Beijing, and broke up my stay in the capital with a year in Dalian. None of those provincial cities are roughing it by any means (Wuxi had a McD's even in 1998) but there were plenty of the rough edges in Wuxi (1998/99) and Harbin (01/02).

 

Now maybe I'm biased, but I think that's the right way to do it. You do get chucked in at the deep end, but it's right at the point where you have, by going to China, tried to chuck yourself in at the deep end. The idea of dropping myself in say, Russia, today and trying to survive, basically for no better reason than it seemed a bit of a lark, does not appeal. But I remember very much enjoying trying to cram in Chinese bus-taking vocab as the bus careered down the hill towards what I hoped was the correct stop.

 

You might not have the luxuries and English-speaking conveniences of Beijing and Shanghai, but do you really want them? This is the exact point you want to be developing 'local' habits. 

 

Then, as the years go on, you can move towards bigger cities and more advanced study or work opportunities - but you'll be doing it with a much better appreciation of what the country is actually like, and avoiding the downward shift in circumstances you might get by going, say, Beijing to Wuhan. Everyone I can think of who's left Beijing has left China. 

 

How has the geography of your China stay panned out? Jumped right into Shanghai and now fear to leave? Did you land in a second-tier city and have no plans to leave? What would you recommend for the newcomer? 

 

I think a year in Beijing or Shanghai is worthwhile - these cities have to be lived in to be properly experienced, and Beijing was, for my sojourn there, a fun and exciting place to live. But to live there long term? I don't know. I left a couple of years back and while I might miss people (and restaurants) I've never felt pangs to go back there and live. But unless career or study dictates, I suspect a better quality of life can be had in higher-performing provincial cities - Dalian, Qingdao on the coast, maybe Chengdu and Kunming inland. 

[ouyangjun]

I started big and went smaller.  I was sent to China by my original company for work and based out of Shanghai.  I was in Shanghai for almost 6 years and loved it there.  

 

Recently I got a job opportunity with a different company and it required me to move to Suzhou.  I moved to Suzhou and love it here as well.  

 

I think whether you are in a big city or small city it is all what you make of it.  Sure in a big city like Shanghai there is a lot more opportunity to be run with expat crowd, not focus on learning Chinese, but to that point I've met a lot of people from small cities who can't speak any Chinese.  So it's all up to the individual and what they make of it.  When I was in Shanghai I made a lot of Chinese friends and made sure I didn't fall into the only hang out with expats trap.  To this day when I go back to Shanghai I give my Chinese friends a call and we go out on the town.  Also, living in a city like Shanghai, gives you insight into the Shanghainese (how they view smaller provinces, how they view Shanghai, the older/younger generations, what's important to them, society concerns, economical concerns, etc.), which you'd only be able to get a deep understanding of by spending a lot of time in Shanghai (goes for any area - my point is that it is all China and big or small city it is all what you make  of it).

 

Moving to Suzhou has been an easy adjustment for me, and there was no reverse culture shock.  That being said Suzhou is a tier 2 city just outside of Shanghai, so it's by no means roughing it.  

 

Regardless if I'm in Shanghai or Suzhou my average day will consist of speaking Chinese almost exclusively (other than business meetings which require due to non-mandarin speaking attendees).  So my point is, is that big or small it can be done.  

 

I don't think there is a right or wrong way (small to big or big to small).  It all depends what your goals are and how set yourself up for success to go about achieving them.  

 

Cheers!

[abcdefg]

I started with Beijing in the Fall of 2005, for only a few weeks. Liked it and returned for more of a taste of the Capital in the Spring of 2006. Stayed a couple months that time. Didn't like the crowding, the crazy pace and the bad air. No more Beijing for me. Never. Not even for a quick visit or to change planes if I can help it.

 

Decided to try one place south, one place north and one place sort of west. Lived a few months in Zhuhai and loved it. Lived a summer in Harbin and loved it. Entertained the notion of migrating seasonally back and forth between the two.

 

But instead I settled in Kunming in 2007 and never looked back. Kunming immediately felt like home and turned out to be a good fit. Rapidly developed a network of friends. Plus it was easy to find good teachers and schools here. The city is growing fast, but I can still get around on the bus system without much trouble.

 

I don't know what advice to give to others. My situation was different from many in that I wasn't working in China and wasn't pursuing a university degree. My main criterion for selecting a place to live was that it offer a pleasant living environment.

 

At first I would just come to China for a short amount of time and then return to my job in the US. Eventually I "semi-retired," spending more and more time in China and less time in harness back in Texas. And finally I slipped the reins entirely and retired all the way.

 

I still live in Kunming but also increasingly use it as a hub for China and regional exploration. Return to the US once a year. Speak Chinese all day, every day, mistakes and all. Rarely hang out with expats.

[Kelby]

I'll cast my ballot for small to large approach. I've been in Zhengzhou for almost two years now, and after just getting back from Beijing yesterday trying to get my girlfriend a visa, I can say I much prefer it from this perspective.

I felt like I appreciated Beijing much more as a 'small town folk.' The portrait of Mao impressed and the subway felt more convenient than if I'd had these things off the boat so to speak.

Personally, embedding myself in Zhengzhou and going local as early as possible feels more valuable for my language and personal development that romping around with westerners in 三里屯 and expressing my embarrassment that I live in China but speak no Chinese (a conversation I've had with more expats than I can count) from time to time. That's not to say you can't immerse well in a big city, but if the cookies are there I personally cant trust myself to be able to resist eating a fee if you catch my metaphor.

I will say, that I've had my fair share of difficulties and been cheated in my professional life far more than I suspect those in first tier cities are. Having a support structure in place would have helped a lot in the beginning but I have one now, and having a distinctly Chinese place to rest my head every night satisfies the extreme wanderlust I've always felt.

It's not for everyone, but I like it best the way I went about starting a life here

[Meng Lelan]

I started out in Tianjin then went on to Beijing, considering my New York City roots and my youth I had no problem adjusting to the Big B. However now that I'm older I have a difficult time with larger cities (even here in the US I am simply no longer able to tolerate the massive size of San Antonio and Austin and am looking for a smaller city) so if I return for travel or study abroad or work I am not going back to any of the big cities on the mainland. 

[Lu]

I started out in Beijing, also stayed in Taipei for a while, and for Taiwan and China I think that is the best order. From the 'experience for a foreigner' perspective, Taiwan is basically China-light, and if you'd start out there you'd just get another culture shock if you then came to China.

 

I never lived in smaller cities, not for any concious reason but just because circumstances were like this. But I do think I got a little bit of the roughing it experience Roddy describes. Beijing in 2002 also meant listening very closely what the bus lady said and trying to see the stop name from the window, and learning on the spot that a bike for 一百二 actually cost more than 102 yuan. Of course, people who got there in the nineties will laugh at me (and people who got there in the eighties will laugh at them) but life there is easier now than it was then. It was very different from my experience in 2010-2013, Beijing has become a lot more international and it has become a lot easier to just stay in the expat bubble and never bother with Chinese. Of course, that's probably also because I was in a very different part of town doing very different things.

 

I don't think at the time (I was 20-21 and very shy) I could have handled being entirely immersed, with no other foreigners or people I already knew. Who knows, I might have risen to the occasion, but I fear I would have been very lonely and unhappy. As it was, I had a great time, which lead me to go abroad again a year later, which in turn lead me to go abroad again, and again, and I can't promise I've stopped.

 

But yeah, when I left Beijing I left China. But I do think that if I would go back, I'd rather live in, say, Chengdu, or some other smaller but still comfortable city, if I could make a living there. Beijing is not fit for human habitation.

[michaelS]

I lived in Beijing for a year a few years ago, and this year I've come to Dalian. It's certainly a lot easier to speak Chinese and it's especially needed at work, whereas I don't think I spoke a word of Chinese to anyone *at work* the whole time I was teaching in Beijing.

[ChTTay]

I started off in Yinchuan, capital of Ningxia province. 1.7 million. Small, cosy city. Most other foreigners haven't heard of it, at least here in Beijing. Then, when I mention it's a Muslim autonomous region they just jump to Xinjiang province. Man, i've got to stop hanging out with foreigners...

Actually, Chinese people who are from or live in big cities usually look at me like I was crazy to live there. Sometimes they even ask me if I'm crazy. That is usually followed by some kind of admiration. Otherwise, they just know it has good mutton there.

When I first arrived, it was kind of nice to be somewhere small. You can get to almost everywhere you want to go in Yinchuan within a 30 minute taxi ride. As it was my first time living abroad or, in fact, not in my parents house (besides University) I felt that it wasn't quite as daunting as it could have been. At least in terms of the shear scale and size. The daunting aspect of Yinchuan, as a new arrival, was the lack of any English at all. I don't think I need to go into that side of China though. It wasn't too much of a problem as I was fairly well travelled by then and not afriad to do a lot of pointing and waving.

In terms of learning Chinese, there were many opportunities to speak and everyone you meet seems to want to talk to you as there are so few foreigners there. However, I found learning Chinese hard going at first and, in the time I was here, didn't make it much past the survival stage of just getting by. I had the top 5 questions Chinese people ask foreigners when they first meet them down pretty well though.

I found the restaurnt food and also fresh produce to be alot better in Yinchuan than in Beijing.

After that I moved to Beijing. I like the convenience of it but find it too big. I studied at first so could throw myself into that. Now that I work Beijing just feels even bigger. I'm not that out going so having people try speak to me in Yinchuan would be good right now. I can go a couple of days in Beijing without uttering more than 5 words in Chinese. My fault really.

I want to move to somewhere like Chengdu, Kunming or Qingdao/Dalian. I've visited the first 3 and would like to go back for an extended time period. Yinchuan is too small and Beijing is too big for me. Yinchuan was a good first stop nut going back there might drive me a bit doolally, while if I stay in Beijing I run the same risk. Need to find somewhere in between for the sake of my Chinese skills as well as my physical and mental wellbeing.

That was a good ramble!

[Guest realmayo]

downward shift in circumstances you might get by going, say, Beijing to Wuhan

 

It was Wuhan for me, 1999. Big city sure, but called a huge village by those who feel the locals don't behave the way your typical PRC urbanite should.

Never had any interest whatsoever in 'upgrading' to Beijing or Shanghai. Never saw the point, don't know why, might have found them fantastic. Actually it's very likely I'd have loved wherever I first found myself, back then.

 

Not really interested in living on the Mainland again, and not sure I'd have the energy to get to know a new city from scratch, so if I went back for a few months it'd probably be Wuhan again. But these days far more excited by HK or the idea of Taiwan. 

 

If I was 15 years younger all of a sudden, the China of 2014 might not cut it compared to 1999. Too many people saying "that's a sensible idea, going to China" rather than "why on earth would you go there". Perhaps Vietnam or even Burma would be the natural choices these days.

 

Interesting topic, interesting responses.

[imron]

Nandaihe (a small town in Hebei province) for one year, then Beijing for one year, then Nandaihe again for 2 years, then Beijing for 2 years.

[abcdefg]

Post # 8 -- ChTTay

That was a good ramble!

Not a ramble. A very readable account.

 

I went to Yinchuan once and kind of liked it, except it was Spring and the dust was blowing. Sure found a lot of tasty 羊肉拉面。

[abcdefg]

Post # 9 -- Realmayo

Too many people saying "that's a sensible idea, going to China" rather than "why on earth would you go there".

I definitely understand that. Well said!

 

When I make my annual return to the US and tell Chinese acquaintances I live in Yunnan, I still get a shocked expression and some sort of semi-parental warning. "Be careful out there; it's the Wild West." I get this even from overseas Chinese who have never set foot in the province. Then there is a grudging admission that they realize the scenery is nice. The weather too.

[icebear]

How has the geography of your China stay panned out? Jumped right into Shanghai and now fear to leave? Did you land in a second-tier city and have no plans to leave? What would you recommend for the newcomer? 

 

 

1 year Shenzhen -> 2 years Beijing -> out for a few years -> 2 years Beijing

 

I agree that somewhere besides Beijing/Shanghai (and probably SZ/GZ) is a better start, if fully flexible in choosing location. Personally I'd rather a tier-2/3 city than being fully rural, although to each their own. I think the key criteria are a place that will allow/force you to:

a) immerse out of necessity

b) feel like a rockstar out of novelty

c) look back on fondly from a distance about its uniqueness/challenges, rather than griping about how BJ/SH used to be so much better before the class of XX arrived and ruined it (which is usually when I stop listening to 23 year olds)

[ouyangjun]

 

 

b) feel like a rockstar out of novelty

The smaller cities and country side are great for that!  

[Demonic_Duck]

I've been in Beijing since I arrived in China, getting on for a year and a half, and 如果有一天我不得不离去，我希望人们把我埋在这里. (Just kidding. I'd actually like to try life in other, maybe smaller cities in China at some point, though I love Beijing and could see myself here for a few more years.)

[trinifinn]

Left my comfy apartment in Tokyo for shared dorm room in Nanjing U in 1998 (shock), training program at BFSU in Beijing, internship in Shanghai, 3 countries and 'back' to HK ten years later. Can't imagine crossing over to the other side any more.

[Baron]

I started in China by working in a school in some rural suburbs, surrounded by paddy fields and muddy villages. The small city a couple of miles away had about 4 foreign teachers in one year, but they were all gone by the next. The local dialect was... weird, and pretty much only government workers and school students could speak putonghua, but they struggled. So in terms of learning Chinese, without some very dedicated colleagues I would have struggled to learn Chinese.

 

In terms of cultural knowledge, it was an invaluable experience. To be in the middle of a rapidly urbanising small town where many lived below the poverty level with people tagging me along everywhere, and over time confiding much insider gossip gave me an enormous amount of insight into a part of the Chinese psyche and culture.

 

Later living in a city, it was alright but most of it was eating and going to bars, so not exactly a rich cultural experience.

However, I might have had a better quality of Chinese language and known more abut ancient Chinese if I'd gone an studied at a uni.

 

I'd recommend small towns/the countryside to any newcomer, apart from those who are very precious about personal privacy and need an exciting social life, because going to a bigger place it easy after that. Get accustomed to a big city life and the values of city folk first and it could be difficult be a big culture shock to go the other way.

[zhouhaochen]

I started, lived and did the whole thing in Beijing, while traveling to pretty much every single province and city for fun or work. However, my Chinese only started to improve once I moved in with two guys from Anhui and stopped hanging around with the expat crowd in Beijing.

If I could do it again, I would start in a big city for orientation and then move somewhere smaller where they still speak proper Mandarin.

In fact, I still kind of want to do that - Beijing got a bit too cosmopolitan to me, not enough yangrouchuaner places around anymore. Not as bad as Shanghai, but maybe time to move somewhere more Chinese....

[abcdefg]

I started in China by working in a school in some rural suburbs, surrounded by paddy fields and muddy villages.

 

#17 -- Baron, where was it?

[ZhangKaiRong]

@imron

 

We are "老乡"！

 

I spent my first year in Qinhuangdao, Hebei province. The city is small and quite dull, the main attraction is Beidaihe, the closest seaside to Beijing, so it is quite OK during summer, but it is boring as hell in the rest of the year. There is only a few foreigners there, so everybody who has white skin and big, light-coloured eyes is considered to be a kind of superstar. There were some points during my stay when I felt a little bit disappointed with my decision to go to a third-tier city for learning Chinese, and really envied my friends who spent their year in bigger cities, but now I think of it as a pleasent and invaluable time of my life, and I'm grateful that I could spend last year there.

I made a lot of Chinese acquaintances and some real Chinese friends, thanks to them my Chinese improved rapidly, I learnt a lot about Chinese people, their way of thinking, their everyday life. I picked up the 东北口音 and some 东北话, and it is good to hear from Chinese people living here in my home country saying "oh, you have a northern accent!".

 

In my view, going to the bigger from the smaller is the best way to explore China, and this is what I would like to do: I'm planning to go back to work in China, my preference is Chongqing or Chengdu, after that I plan to work some years in Shanghai or Guangzhou, and in the end go to Hong Kong or Singapore to fulfill my Asian dreams