Can Macau and Hong Kong citizens legally block the transition to simplified Chinese?

[johnyork]

A McDonald’s restaurant in Macau tried to replace their traditional Chinese sign with a simplified Chinese sign and it drew criticism from Macau and Hong Kong citizens. The reason I say “tried” is because the sign was switched back.
 

Why are they so against converting to simplified Chinese? For me, as a foreigner, reading simplified Chinese is much easier and I consider it progress towards the future.

Also, why do they refer to simplified Chinese as “handicap” Chinese for “peasants”? It is as though they are implying that simplified Chinese is for poor uneducated people and traditional Chinese is for the real Chinese citizens who are educated. They may not say this directly, but that is the feeling I am getting.

[Steingletscher]

It's all politics rather then actual literacy ability since simplified characters are strongly associated with mainland China, and subsequently the communist party. The people in Hong Kong and Macau want to preserve their own culture as distinct from mainland, and the usage of it is an encroachment of another culture, one hated by most. For example, Hong Kong and Macau have a very different modern historical experience then the mainland. The politics of it is one of social identity.

 

The reason why they refer to simplified characters are "handicaps for peasants" is that the reason they were simplified to make it easier for people to become literate. I'm not sure of the statistics, but illiteracy rates were far higher before the introduction of simplified characters, though whether it is solely due to the complexity of the characters or a myriad of other factors of the time is also up to debate. Still, during that era, there was a large consensus among scholars that complexity of the characters was a roadblock to literacy a reform of the Chinese language was necessary. 

Whether they are easier or not is actually quite a debatable issue. There are a lot distinctions make in traditional characters that aren't in the simplified. 干 for example has quite a few different version's in the traditional.

 

Here is a good introduction to the debate between the two. Simplified is more practical now, but Chinese culture and the language is far older simplified characters. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_on_traditional_and_simplified_Chinese_characters

Regardless of the debate, be literate in both. Once when you know one, it isn't hard to learn the other.

[Lu]

 

For me, as a foreigner, reading simplified Chinese is much easier and I consider it progress towards the future.

You may be surprised to learn this, but most people in Hong Kong are not foreigners. They are in fact Hong Kongers, who have used traditional characters all their lives and as a result, find traditional a lot easier than having to learn a new writing system because McDonald's thinks it's more convenient or because some foreigners think it's easier.

 

Illiteracy rates did drop a lot after the introduction of simplified characters on the mainland, but since illiteracy rates in Taiwan and Hong Kong are even slightly lower than in China, I think this is only partly because of the change in characters and to a large extent because the CCP (and Chiang Kai-shek in Taiwan) made a point of teaching people to read.

[li3wei1]

I think you'd get the same reaction in the UK if some big company started putting "labor" and "center" on their signs, instead of "labour" and "centre". Not the comments about handicaps and peasants, they'd think of something else, but the idea of some foreigners messing with their language is a bad one. The French have also expressed displeasure at English words creeping into their language.

[Ruben von Zwack]

What (and if) Simplifying did for literacy will always remain up to opinion. Especially for a question as complex as this one, it is impossible to set up scientific double blind studies. Or in fact, any half way scientific studies. Human societies aren't lab mice populations. Hence, it's all just opinionating.

 

Anyway, wasn't there for the same reason a row over Itunes recently, too?

[renzhe]

Why are they so against converting to simplified Chinese?

For the same reason that UK citizens are against switching to American spelling and Spain has not switched to Mexican Spanish, which is "easier".

I doubt that there would be a huge outcry about US spelling in McDonalds, but the balance of power is very different in each of these cases.

For me, as a foreigner, reading simplified Chinese is much easier and I consider it progress towards the future.

That's fine, but you, as a foreigner, don't get to choose how people write their mother tongue.

Also, why do they refer to simplified Chinese as “handicap” Chinese for “peasants”?

That part is just pure bigotry.

[Kenny同志]

I understand their reaction. People in Hong Kong and Macau have been exposed to far less Simplified Chinese than Traditional Chinese which they are more comfortable with so they are very upset; they may even see it as a bootlicking gesture of the restaurant to tourists from the mainland.

 

What's interesting is that there are quite a lot of signs in Traditional Chinese on the mainland but very often the designer screws the sign up for lack of a good knowledge of Traditional Chinese. For example, it's not uncommon to find 农莊, 面館, 理發 in signs. Consequently the client using the sign looks stupid.

[Demonic_Duck]

Also, why do they refer to simplified Chinese as “handicap” Chinese for “peasants”? [...] They may not say this directly

 

Seems like you're contradicting yourself here. Do people actually refer to simplified characters like this or not? If not, using the word "refer", along with quotation marks, is misleading.

 

Why are they so against converting to simplified Chinese? For me, as a foreigner, reading simplified Chinese is much easier and I consider it progress towards the future.

 

Have fun telling that to them.

[Ruben von Zwack]

Yeah, the bigotry just strikes me too. My flat mate, who is from HK, told me that as a student during exams in HK she would often handwrite Simplified cause it is faster. At the same time she is very vocal about how everything from mainland China, their writing, even their Mandarin (!) pronunciation, is a step down. What she is saying is basically that they are cavemen, out to ruin Hongkong

 

But to be fair, it's the first time someone expresses these aversions to me in person. All other educated Chinese from all sorts of backgrounds (Taiwan, Singapore, PRC) I've met were able to read both, Traditional and Simplified, and didn't seem emotional about it.

[skylee]

What is the legal context about the "legally" in the title of this thread?

 

The case mentioned by the OP is not the first one.  The Agnes b café in HK has apologised for using simplified characters in the menu.  Even in universities using simplified characters in promotion materials or teaching in class using Putonghua could lead to trouble.  This is a sensitive issue, similar to the case I mentioned in my status update.

[OneEye]

My flat mate, who is from HK, told me that as a student during exams in HK she would often handwrite Simplified cause it is faster.

 

It's not really "writing in simplified" (meaning the 簡體字 officially used in China), but using 簡寫字. At least that's what they call it in Taiwan. A lot of these shorthand handwritten forms are the same as simplified, but it isn't due to the influence of simplified characters. In fact, it's generally quite the opposite. The simplified form is what it is because it was a common handwritten variant already. A lot of the forms are similar to the mainland simplified forms, but slightly different, like 奌、覌、亇 et al, and some are written like the Japanese forms, like 気、竜、両、対、発、関 etc.

 

Anyway, they're simply writing the way people have written for a very long time, not writing "Simplified Chinese," a system which has only existed for a relatively short period. That's not to say there's been zero influence from Simplified Chinese, because there may have been, I don't know.

 

Here's a Wikipedia article about this.

[Ruben von Zwack]

Thanks for pointing that out! Funnily, Simplified was how she called it to me in English, but maybe she didn't want to confuse me with too many details, or who knows, maybe isn't aware of those historic developments herself.
 

 In fact, it's generally quite the opposite. The simplified form is what it is because it was a common handwritten variant already.

 

I know, realising this was among one of the reasons why I made peace with Simplified
(Although I still think an unduly amount of characters look like 头 now )

[johnyork]

Good replies, thanks for all the feedback to everyone who has replied thus far.

[Meng Lelan]

Why are they so against converting to simplified Chinese? For me, as a foreigner, reading simplified Chinese is much easier and I consider it progress towards the future.

 

Have fun telling that to them.

 

Uh, well, the results of an exchange like that will not be much fun. It's a lot like when some 20 or 30 years ago in the US they tried to replace American Sign Language with Signed Exact English in the deaf classrooms with the idea that Signed Exact English was much easier and progressive. 

[Kobo-Daishi]

It'll be interesting to see what happens once the 50 years are up. Only 33 more years for Hong Kong. An additional 2 years for Macau.

 

Will teaching eventually be done in Mandarin?

 

Will the media have more and more Mandarin until Mandarin takes precedence over Cantonese?

 

Will simplified eventually have primacy over traditional?

 

Kobo.

[johnyork]

Kobo, in my opinion, simplified Chinese will supersede traditional Chinese by 2020 (unless strongly challenged). That is why I asked, can Macau and Hong Kong citizens legally block the transition to simplified Chinese? Do the citizens have any legal right as an entity outside the Government?

[skylee]

johnyork, which government are you talking about? Which government is promoting a transition to the simplified script in HK and Macau? Why is there a legal issue? Are you familiar with the basic laws in HK and Macau?

[anonymoose]

I read somewhere that when simplified characters were introduced, there was a legal requirement on the mainland to use them. Not sure exactly of the details or whether such a law still exists, but these days even many government-run entities use traditional characters in their marketing.

[OneEye]

Many of the books in my field that I get from the mainland are in traditional characters. Particularly books on palaeography and phonology, but sometimes other books too. Some palaeography books are handwritten, since typesetting this stuff can be very difficult, and those are nearly always in traditional.

[Ruben von Zwack]

Such law exists, but it also specifies exceptions. There were several rounds of simplification between the 1950s and 80s, but not all of them were successful. It's quite interesting in detail.

 

I'm of the impression we are currently observing a world-wide trend towards regionalism, dialects, "heritage" and all that, so who knows where the development will lead. I think China has no choice but to cater to that trend to a certain degree.

 

In the light of that, a picture from the Beijing subway, taken last november:

This was the only traditional "Patriotism" poster I saw, all others were in Simplified, and it's small and not really fancy. Still, I thought it was curious enough.