Book of Changes - 坎

[WKC]

Hi,

 

I am trying to understand the character 坎. 

 

According to http://www.zdic.net/z/17/js/574E.htm 坎 means "pit, hole; snare, trap; crisis". 

 

However, when I read translations of the Book of Changes, hexagram 29 坎 is translated as the "abyss" or "the abysmal (water)".

 

I would be grateful if anyone can tell me how and why 坎 can be translated as "abyss".

 

Many thanks,

 

WKC

[mouse]

Well, a pit or hole is a kind of abyss. However, I think the reason this word is chosen in the context of the Book of Changes is because there it suggests danger and is very inauspicious. Therefore "abyss" gets the literal meaning and implication across.

[Lu]

What is the context? What do you need the translation for? People can help you better if you give a little more information

[WKC]

I'm trying to learn Chinese.  Since the Book of Changes is a classic, I'm trying to understand a little about it.

 

Internet resources such as those I list below seem to indicate that 坎 means "abyss". 

 

- http://www.iching123.com/29_text.htm

- http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=Yijing&no=29

 

I've checked Shuowen and Kangxi and can't see it meaning abyss.  I can understand that it means pit, trap,......., even grave.  But I'm not quite getting how it leads to abyss.

 

Does anyone know a dictionary or other classic text that uses 坎 to mean abyss? 

 

Thanks.

[Shelley]

I think the context was its use in the book of changes as opposed to its dictionary translation.

 

The translation was needed because the OP is trying to understand the character 坎.

 

Abyss is just another word for hole or pit but with ominous overtones, usually considered to be bottomless. From my dictionary:a bottomless gulf, anything that is very deep. The abyssal is of ocean depth, also abysmal.

 

I agree abyss is used for its more inauspicious feeling and is probably gets the meaning across best.

[Demonic_Duck]

An analogy for you:

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".

 

Well, my English to Chinese dictionary says "word" means "词", so why is it translated as "道"?

[Shelley]

Where is translated as 道?

 

I suppose at a stretch the "word" might be the "truth" 

 

But this is the trouble with religious works, it is all open to interpretation.

 

Not being a religious person I find the original sentence makes no sense to start with, so translating it will be fraught with personal and semantic problems.

[Demonic_Duck]

Where is translated as 道?

 

In various (all?) Chinese translations of the Bible. My point is that in religious or philosophical works, words often take on highly abstract meanings which have little connection to their standard usage, and thus are likely to get translated very differently. "坎" to "abyss", as per the OP, actually doesn't seem like much of a stretch at all.

[Shelley]

Oh I see, it is the "usual"  translation, I agree that translation of 坎 to mean abyss from the definition given in several dictionaries I looked in gave it it as hole, pit, crevice, etc. From that to abyss in this context is not that great a leap.

 

As demonic duck says because of its context you will have to accept this kind of translation. it is the meaning that is important not the exact translation.

 

The book of changes is a difficult thing to translate, there are many versions out there in many languages.

 

In fact one of my classmates years ago and friend for many years (an older gentleman) until his death last year, it was his life's work to translate the book of changes from the original classical Chinese because he believed that a lot of the modern translations have lost or changed some of the original meanings.

 

He concentrated on reading and writing with this aim in mind, unfortunately I don't how far he got or if there is a copy of his work.

 

I think either you pick one translation and accept it or always look things up in many versions and draw your own conclusions as to what the meaning is supposed to be.

 

Good luck with your Chinese learning

[Ruben von Zwack]

Aren't both, a pit and an abyss, bottomless depths? I don't see the contradiction here.

My worldly guess is that person who did the English translation didn't want the association of mining that pit has, and thought, abyss sounds greek and philosophical.

 

I'm not even English, so my language feeling could be wrong, but here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pit_%28disambiguation%29

[WKC]

Thanks everyone.  Most helpful.

 

To me, the translation of 坎 in to English is perhaps not of paramount importance.  What I would ultimately like to know is whether a native Chinese speaker be able to associate or conclude that 坎 is a synonym for 淵?

[Ruben von Zwack]

Maybe ask in "Tattoos and quick translation help" too, and make the question the topic name, so that the native Chinese members who aren't particularly into classical Chinese are more likely to see it?

[WKC]

I am trying to learn Chinese and would like to know whether a native Chinese speaker would think that 坎 is a synonym for 淵.

 

The context for my query is the Book of Changes where 坎 appears to be translated into English as "abyss".

 

Many thanks.

[WKC]

Ruben,

 

Thanks.

[OneEye]

In that context, no, of course not. The name of that trigram is 坎, not 淵. There's no synonym.

 

I doubt it would be in other contexts, either. 坎 is a deep pit, while 淵 is a deep pool, or the origin or source of something (淵源), or describes something deep and/or profound (深).

 

If you're "trying to learn Chinese," the 易經 is not what you need to be reading. It's just about the most arcane, obscure, confusing thing you could have possibly chosen. You could read 10 different scholars' interpretations of it and get 12 differing opinions about what it means, all of them mutually contradicting. I won't even touch it, and I'm a glutton for punishment who's doing an MA in a Chinese department in Taiwan.

 

If you're interested in the Changes, you're much better off reading about it in English first (Edward Shaughnessy's book would be a good place to start). There's a ton of stuff out there about it in Chinese, most of it crap, so when your Chinese is good enough (both classical and modern), then maybe you can dive into it.

[WKC]

OneEye,

 

Thanks for your thoughts.  Most interesting.

 

I take the view that the best way to learn Chinese is to read texts that are closest to the origins of 漢語.

 

There is a reason that the 周易 and the 十翼 lie at the heart of the Chinese Classics.

 

For some strange reason my post in the Tattoos forum was moved to this thread.

[Shelley]

I would have to agree with OneEye that this is not the best reading or teaching material a beginner could choose.

 

IMHO the best way to learn Chinese is to get a good set of text and work books (something like NPCR) and work through those, take some classes if possible, Immerse yourself as much as is possible for you (Chinese TV, podcasts, speaking to people etc.)

 

I don't think Chinese children get taught with this as their text book.

 

If however you carry on with your method and get any success and not too many confusions as with the character 坎 ,please let me know when you have passed any exams, at what level and what time scale it takes you, it would be interesting.

 

Good luck

[OneEye]

There are a lot of reasons that your view is flawed, not least of which is that the received text of the 易 that we have today is probably based on something no later than the late Warring States, which is also the date for the oldest extant manuscript that's been excavated. I'm not sure where you got the idea that the 周易 and 十翼 are "at the heart" of the classics, but they are not. If anything is, it's the 詩經 and 尚書, no contest. If you look at Warring States-era excavated texts, you'll find that those two are far and away the most quoted classics, although 老子 is obviously right up there (though not a "classic" in the strict sense). But let me tell you, you won't be reading and comprehending those texts any time soon either. There's simply no way to do so without being proficient in modern Chinese first.

 

edit: I'm sure you'd find it equally absurd for someone to say "I think the best way to learn English is to start with Beowulf and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle."

[WKC]

I am trying to learn 文言文.  In other words 古文. 

 

There are people who understand.

[Shelley]

I see you are aware of the "Which Chinese text books to use to learn classical Chinese " thread. Use some of these books.

 

Use text books, leave translating the book of changes till you are much more skilled. Many, many,, intelligent and skilled scholars have spent years trying to translate it as close to the original as possible and other interpretations. This is very big subject.

 

OneEye says it well in post #18 and #15.