Pronunciation of Pǔtōnghuà

[johnyork]

I am pronouncing the word Pǔtōnghuà 普通话/普通話 as [pʰ᷆u˨˩·tʰʊ́ŋ˧˥·xû̯ä˥˩] with the first syllable being pronounced with a 低降调 low falling tone (調值 21). However, I was told that I should pronounce the first syllable with a 低降升调 low falling-rising tone (調值 214) like this [pʰ᷉u˨˩˦·tʰʊ́ŋ˧˥·xû̯ä˥˩].

 

I do believe I am using the correct tone, but I am learning Mandarin, whereas the person telling me I am wrong is a native Chinese speaker.

 

I do understand the pīnyīn spelling includes a caron on the first syllable and the caron represents the 3rd tone in Mandarin Chinese. However, since the first syllable is followed by a syllable with a 阴平声 high tone (調值 55), then wouldn't the first syllable be pronounced with a 低降调 low falling tone (調值 21)?

 

Thank you in advance for your help.

[Hofmann]

You are right. Don't count on native speakers being right about anything except usage.

[陳德聰]

You may be correct about the actual theory, but if when putting it into practice, you are being told you're doing it wrong, you may not actually be producing what you think you're producing?

Because you clearly have the right idea. Give us a recording pretty please.

[johnyork]

Good answer Hofmann. I had a different native speaker confirm I am pronouncing it correctly with a 低降调 low falling tone (調值 21).

[renzhe]

I agree with 陳德聰 here. It's possible that your pronunciation sounded slightly off, and that the first native speaker went "back to basics", enunciating each characters separately.

If you read the word slowly character-by-character, then you'd pronounce the full, canonical third tone. But if pronounced as a word, the third tone cannot be complete.

[roddy]

"the person telling me I am wrong is a native Chinese speaker."

"Don't count on native speakers being right."

"I had a different native speaker confirm I am pronouncing it correctly."

 

Glad you got that sorted then ;-)

 

it should be the half-third tone. If you're sure you're getting that right, fair enough. 

[lingo-ling]

Your instructor may be wanting you to enunciate in a "correct" standard pronunciation that nobody uses in real life. It would be like a teacher of English insisting that you should pronounce "comfortable" with four clearly enunciated syllables, instead of three run-together syllables like most people say it.

 

Does he also insist that you pronounce 誰 as shui?

[陳德聰]

Worth noting that some people actually do pronounce 谁 as shui.

[johnyork]

lingo-ling, most the time when I am asking someone a Mandarin language question, they are native speakers only. They are not teachers and probably don’t have any special skills in teaching Mandarin, etc.. I just want the opinion of native speakers and just glad to have people give me feedback. I usually don’t question someone’s abilities to teach. I just take whatever they have to offer at face value. I look at it like this, it is up to me to verify any answer I am given through an alternate source (this is the main reason I am in this forum right now). 

 

The whole thing about my pronunciation of 普通话 had nothing to do with my pronunciation (in my opinion). It was more of a linguistic terminology thing. The person I was talking to was confused when I am asked him the tone of first syllable. For starters, he couldn’t relay the “tone level description” to me, (other than to call it tone #3, which is correct to him as that is the way he was taught in school). However, I was asking him the actual tone level value because tone #3 has tone sandhi rules and most the time it is a half-third tone or what I like to refer to by its actual tone contour description “low falling tone”. He told me I should use “tone #3”. I informed him that “tone #3” can be “low falling”, “low falling-rising” or “high rising” based on tone sandhi. This was just not the way he or any Chinese is used to discussing tones. A native Chinese speakers already speaks Chinese. He or she doesn’t need to linquistically analyze it as they already speak it.

 

I speak Thai language and I went through a similar thing when learning Thai. I would ask people about Thai tones and they simply couldn’t describe the tone level values,  other than to name the tone number (i.e. its tone identity). Therefore, Thais in reality, simply memorized the tone sound with the word. Most Thais can’t even determine tones using tone rules even though they have tone rules. They can’t even tell you the consonant class of the consonants, which you need to know if you plan on applying aforesaid tone rules. They are not able to discuss tone level values. Learning Thai linquistic terminology doesn’t change anything either. They won’t know that stuff, not a chance.

 

So, in summary. Native speakers can speak their language, but this doesn’t mean they are walking linguistic specialist ready to blurt out linguistic jargon on demand. What I am starting to do now is simply ask people to pronounce the word. It’s up to me to try and pronounce it the best I can. If I want to know the tone level value or any other linquistic information, then I am just going to have to get that on my own (if I must have it). Unless I am speaking with a Chinese linguist, which 99% of the time, I won’t be. It will just be the most readily available native Chinese speaker (example: my waiter at a Chinese restaurant, etc.).

 

I am speaking in general terms by the way. Obviously there are some native Chinese speakers who can answer questions at a linguistic level because for whatever reason, they simply know the information. So I did a lot of generalizing in this post, but it was just to simplify my point.

[johnyork]

Also, I am pronouncing 谁/誰 shuí as [ʂu̯᷄eɪ̯˧˥]. Sounds like “shoe” (like I lost my shoe) + “ei” (like in the word eight) spoken with a high rising tone (tone #2 in Mandarin). Can someone confirm this is correct?

[Guest realmayo]

I have a sense that the vowel that you describe as found in "shoe" should be barely discernible, its chief effect is to get some "w" into there between the "sh" and the "ei". But my Chinese isn't as standard as it should be so will happily defer to any other view here.

[Guest realmayo]

if you want to splash the cash on a very thorough book, which I do not currently have to hand, try The Sounds of Chinese: http://www.amazon.com/The-Sounds-Chinese-Audio-CD/dp/0521603986

[Hofmann]

This dictionary lists shéi as the first pronunciation and shuí as the second. (BTW check out that annoyingly inconsistent diacritic placement.) and in my observations shéi dominates, even though shuí is more conservative. shéi is standard. I would only use shuí when reading poetry, if I ever read poetry in Mandarin.

 

Native speakers have generally internalized phonological rules since infancy and make them habits. Most Mandarin speakers don't know that third tone changes based on whether or not something comes after it, just as most native English speakers don't think they pronounce "p" in "pill" any different from the "p" in "spill." (which of course is the difference between 屁 and 畢 in Mandarin).

[renzhe]

shuí is used by some native speakers. I've heard it more than once and it's certainly correct, but I agree that shéi is far more common nowadays.