Stepping out of "lurk" mode and needing site/book suggestions

[Lonie]

Hello all! I have been an advent "lurker" of these forums for years and have finally decided to just hop on the bandwagon and venture out of "lurk-ville" to seek some much appreciated advice/help.

One of my New Year resolutions for 2014 was to "finally" begin my independent study of Mandarin. In preparation of this venture I have set for myself, I came up with a bare-bones study plan and have just finished going through a trial-run of it. I know that many here are wondering "Why would you do a trial-run? Just do it!" Well, it's simple (for me at least). I have a full-time job (that can be very demanding on my time during certain times of the year) and a life outside of work. I did the trial-run to ensure that I would be able to continue with my study plan without it becoming an issue at a later date. It's easy to start something, but it's so very hard to stay motivated long enough in order to finish it. I wanted to ensure that I won't say that dreaded phrase "I just don't have the time" later on down the road.

Thankfully, my trial-run was a fair success (IMHO) since I am now in a sort-of routine for this venture. However, I did discover that I was missing a vital piece that I feel is a necessity when learning a foreign language. That vital piece is what has brought me out of "lurk-ville", become a member of the forums, and to brave the masses.

First, let me give a quick run-down of my study plan. I'm sure many of you will see the missing piece right away (and my love for a certain sport).

Note: I gave myself deadlines only in the last three phases of my plan. Everything else I did at my own slow and steady pace.

:: 1st Quarter ::

PHASE I: Tip-Off (or Start Lesson)

I will be using the "Integrated Chinese (Traditional Characters)" series as my main introduction to the spoken and written Mandarin language. A friend of mine was very generous in offering me the means to obtain all the material I would need for "Lesson I: Greetings" from the textbook, workbook, character workbook, and audio files for my trial-run. I wanted study material that offered a well-rounded comprehensive package and I feel that this did it for me.

Why "Traditional"? Simple. I studied calligraphy for a brief moment in time (way back in the day) and so am more familiar with the characters (even if I don't know how to string them together, yet, to form a comprehensive sentence).

PHASE II: Dribble & Pass (or Re-enforce Lesson)

There was a post on these forums some time back where the OP could not decide between which of two textbooks for beginners to use. In an answering post from another member, they gave their opinion of one of the textbooks to use and made a random comment like ".. or just use both." I, of course, took to this like bees to honey.

As such, I will be using the "New Practical Chinese Reader" series as my review/re-enforcement study material. It was much easier finding the corresponding "Greetings" lesson on the net. Granted, I'll be hopping around NPCR to match up with what I learn in IC. But, I'm mainly using NPCR to re-enforce what I've learned. I tend to think outside of the box and I am well aware that there is more than one way to get the same answer. I was learning the same material, but in a different way, from a different perspective, and with different audio/voices. In the real world, a simple phrase like "Ni Hao" can sound fairly different when the local accents come into play.

PHASE III: Three Pointer (or Supplementals and 2-Week Total Immersion)

Ah, the phase I truly enjoyed the most and kept things fun and spunky. You can't just study, study, study. That road can lead to a massive burnout (at least for me). Therefore, for 2-weeks I did nothing but put what I've learned so far to practical use.

a) Listening: I made a playlist of Chinese music, slapped it on my iPod, and listened to it all day at work (and couldn't understand a thing, but the music was catchy). Staring at the computer for long periods of time has been known to cause mind-numbness.    I also watched one random episode of some random Chinese drama from Monday to Thursday (First, WITHOUT the English subtitles. Then again, with the English subtitles). Surprisingly, I didn't feel too lost. Although, that might have been because I let my imagination run wild and came up with my own story line. Quite hilarious IMHO. Only to later find out that I was totally wrong. But, hey, just one lesson in -- still a ways to go.

b) Speaking: dropped by a few chop-sueys on the way home, said "Ni Hao", introduced myself (in Mandarin), and then ordered my food to go (in English). Not quite there yet. When I begin my plan, I'll join some social site for a conversational partner. Suggestions welcomed.

c) Reading: for the trial-run, I just re-read (both out-loud and silently) the two Dialogues (characters only) in lesson 1 of IC. When I begin my plan, I'll use the "Chinese Breeze" books for my level to do this on some Saturday afternoon while doing loads of laundry.

d) Writing: I just grabbed a few random sentences from the two Dialogues in lesson 1 of IC and copied them. I found it both interesting and challengingly to see if I remembered the proper stroke-order of the characters I had learned. When I begin my plan, I'll copy passages from the "Chinese Breeze" books.

e) --- insert the vital missing piece here --- (I'm sure some of you have figured it out, but let's finish up with the last two phases of my plan first)

PHASE IV: Half-Time (or What? English? I'd almost forgotten that!!)

This is where I went one full week of no Mandarin at all -- i.e. no music, no dramas, no reading, no writing, complete cold turkey here folks. I think I ate soup, sandwiches, and pasta or something none-Asian all week. A friend of mine suggested I give myself a short-break. Studying is equal to physical training -- your brain must rest, just like your muscles. Overdoing things can cause injury (or major setbacks). I wasn't too sure if it would work or not. But, surprisingly, it did (for me at least). No potential "burnout" in sight. Whoohoo!

PHASE V: Rebound (or Quick Review and move on)

This is where I did one full week of a quick review of the "Greetings" lessons in both IC and NPCR. And low and behold, I didn't forget anything. In fact, I was able to just jump back in and hit the court running. If I'd had all the books in front of me, I feel that I would have been more than ready to begin the next lesson.  (2nd Quarter, let's get ready to rum-ble!)

Whew, that was a lot. LOL! Now, onto what I'm missing.

Vital missing piece = information on the History, Geography, People and Culture of China (and Taiwan)!!!!!

 

How could I have missed this! To truly learn a foreign language (and to become affluent) you have to have some background knowledge of the country and its people and their culture.

So, I am looking for help in finding websites and books (preferably in English at this point) that talk about anything regarding China (and Taiwan's) History/Dynasties, Geography, Art and Art History, Architecture, Calligraphy, the Martial Arts, and etc. I really don't care, just as long as I can read about them. They can be Children's Tales or Ghost Stories; Myths and Legends or Poems; stuff about Tea Ceremonies or Cultural Festivals and Celebrations; Newspapers and Magazines; heck, I'll even read about Chinese Monks and what they do, just as long as I can get more insight into these countries, their people, and their culture.

Also, feel free to give your 2-cents on my study plan and any suggestions for social sites that offer conversational partners. I've lurked these forums long enough to know that any advice/suggestions many of you give will be both useful and greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long-winded post.

P.S. Will be ordering IC, NPCR, and Chinese Breeze materials this week. February's the target month to get things rolling. I'm so happy!
 

[Baron]

Start with wikipedia, browse it until you find stuff about China that interests you then go more in depth from there by searching those topics on wikipedia/Google/Amazon.

 

Do you want to learn about everything or do you have a priority list? I could dump a load of my bookmarks here, but it might not be what you're after.

 

Your method is very comprehensive, and affluence is an admirable goal.

[Demonic_Duck]

Does affluence mean something else in the context of language learning? I always assumed it just had the meaning of "wealth"...

 

As for sites to find conversational partners, I've previously found language exchanges via couchsurfing.org, lang-8.com and gumtree.com (basically a UK-specific equivalent of craigslist). None of these sites have finding language exchanges as their primary purpose, but all are suitable. You'll widen your potential pool significantly if you use skype or similar, although personally I much prefer face-to-face exchanges.

[Ruben von Zwack]

Hello and 欢迎！

 

I work full time, too, so I am excited to see more people in that situation. I don't have a proper study plan, but sometimes I miss having some sort of routine, so I find yours quite intriguing.

 

One book I particularly liked was Cecilia Lindqvist's "Empire of Living Symbols". It's about Characters, but at the same time, really more about culture and history. What I particularly liked was that it isn't any esoteric, pastel coloured "eternal wisdom" fluff (even if the title may ring like that a bit), quite on the opposite.

Lindqvist received some Chinese awards for her work, and the book has been re-printed over and over again, so you can find it either new, or plenty of inexpensive used copies.

 

加油！

[Lu]

 

So, I am looking for help in finding websites and books (preferably in English at this point) that talk about anything regarding China (and Taiwan's) History/Dynasties, Geography, Art and Art History, Architecture, Calligraphy, the Martial Arts, and etc. I really don't care, just as long as I can read about them. They can be Children's Tales or Ghost Stories; Myths and Legends or Poems; stuff about Tea Ceremonies or Cultural Festivals and Celebrations; Newspapers and Magazines; heck, I'll even read about Chinese Monks and what they do, just as long as I can get more insight into these countries, their people, and their culture.

Have you tried wikipedia and your local library? Those would be good places to start. What kind of stuff do you like to read, and is there a particular area that you're especially interested in (ancient or recent history, wushu, fairy tales)? That would make it a bit easier to find some recommendations. Or you could take a look at the 'What are you reading' thread in the literature forum for some inspiration.

[Kelby]

For the history part, I find that the China History Podcast is great for boning up on it. Listen to it on your drive time for a couple weeks and you'll get more information on various historical figures than you even wanted ;)

[Lonie]

Hello Baron

 

Thank you so much for answering my post. Yes, I would like to learn everything, but know that I probably can't. However, I will make a very good effort at trying.

I was so upset at myself for forgetting that "vital missing piece" that I didn't even think of making a priority list. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

For now, the top two areas I believe I should focus on would be:

1) Ancient History / Early Civilization
2) Art and Art History

I believe these two would pretty much run hand-in-hand and would allow me to make easy connections as I study them. If you have any recommendations in these areas, I'd greatly welcome them.

Once I've gotten further along in my studies, I'll be able to switch to more modern things and specific areas.

And lastly, thanks for the positive head-nod to my study plan and goals -- clearly, my determination shows.
 

[Lonie]

Hello Demonic_Duck

Yes, affluence means "wealth, well-to-do, rich, etc." However, in the context of language learning, it means "rich, wealthy, well-to-do" in knowledge, not money.

My goals are: 

 

1) To be able to hold a decent conversation in Mandarin without the hesitations.

2) To be able to read a novel written in Traditional Characters at nearly the same speed as I would read one in English.

3) To be able to  watch some drama or movie without the subtitles.

4) And to be able to "get" the cultural jokes and other nuances that you cannot get just by learning the language alone.

Thank you so much for the site recs. I will definitely be checking them out -- already bookmarked them.

Questions: As you have experience with conversational partners, can you recommend when would be a good time to obtain one? Did you start immediately? Or, did you wait until you were a few lessons along?

Thanks.

[Lonie]

Hello Ruben von Zwack

Great! There's another full-timer. I'm so happy. I was beginning to think I might be alone in that area.

I'm glad you liked my study plan. With so many ways to study posted throughout these forums, I thought my method might just be a little too much. After reviewing what I had written down and before I started my trial-run, I thought so too. But afterwards, I was just as surprised as some of my co-workers (who knew about this venture I was taking up) at how well things went. I believe the success is due to the last three phases of my plan.

In Phase III, I had lots of fun.
In Phase IV, I had lots of rest and time to reflect.
In Phase V, I had the feeling of accomplishment; that I actually "got it" after all of the hard work I put into the first two Phases and "that" (IMHO) is one of the best feelings in the world.

Thanks for the book rec. I browsed the "look inside" pages on amazon. Then, searched the forums, found and read the review (by member Zhuru) on it. My "spidey-senses" started tingling so I have added it to my initial order list for this week. I'm so happy, I didn't have to redo my budget. Additional suggestions welcomed.
 

[Lonie]

Hello Lu

I started surfing Wikipedia the moment I realized what I was missing. However, I felt the information given was just too general -- but a good start. I read all of the relevant articles over my lunch break. What I'm looking for is something more in-depth. I haven't been to the library, yet, but have plans to go.

As for what I like to read, practically everything. But as both you and Baron have pointed out to me, I do need to prioritize. (Please see my response to Baron above for the areas I've chosen to start with). Recommendations welcomed.

And I will definitely be searching through the forums. Thanks so much for the response.

[Lonie]

Hello Kelby

This site is great! Thanks for the rec. I had no clue that this site existed (and, of course, I have it bookmarked).   This will be great on my drive home. I leave early enough in the mornings to avoid rush-hour traffic. However, no such luck in the evenings.

Looking at some of the content, I just might be able to organize it to where I can match the podcast up with whatever Chinese history book chapter I'll soon be reading. It would be interesting if I can get it to work out without too many glitches.

 

Thanks again for the rec and for responding to my post.
 

[skylee]

My goals are: 

 

1) To be able to hold a decent conversation in Mandarin without the hesitations.

2) To be able to read a novel written in Traditional Characters at nearly the same speed as I would read one in English.

3) To be able to  watch some drama or movie without the subtitles.

4) And to be able to "get" the cultural jokes and other nuances that you cannot get just by learning the language alone.

 

What is the timeframe of achieving these goals?  They are very ambitious IMO.

 

PS - but of course it would depend on what types of novel / drama / movie you aim to read / watch.

[Lu]

 

2) To be able to read a novel written in Traditional Characters at nearly the same speed as I would read one in English.

You might want to be slightly less ambitious and go with 'read a novel in Chinese and enjoy it [as much as I would a novel in English]'. Reading Chinese can of course be learned, learning Chinese as fast as your mother tongue is another cup of tea.

 

 

As you have experience with conversational partners, can you recommend when would be a good time to obtain one? Did you start immediately? Or, did you wait until you were a few lessons along?

Either works. If you get a language partner right away, you won't have much you can say to them, but you'll have native input from the very beginning, which is valuable.

[Baron]

re #7

 

Those aren't my areas at all (apart from this kind of stuff), but I believe others can recommend.

 

You should probably read 三国演义／Romance of the 3 Kingdoms. You'll get some history, literature and shared cultural experience (most Chinese people have read it) all in one. 

[Demonic_Duck]

Questions: As you have experience with conversational partners, can you recommend when would be a good time to obtain one? Did you start immediately? Or, did you wait until you were a few lessons along?

 

I started relatively soon after I began learning, however at this stage it was very much a case of "let's talk in English for an hour or two, periodically interspersed with me asking a few Chinese-related questions and maybe attempting the odd simple dialogue".

 

I wrote a post a while back about things to consider to get the most out of a language exchange (here), although that advice only really applies for those who can already sustain a Chinese conversation for an extended period of time. I think in the beginning stages it could still be a worthwhile excercise if done efficiently, but in this case you would dedicate the Chinese "half" of the exchange to simply learning and practicing speaking about the topic you've chosen, though the majority of speaking would still probably be in English. It may also be a good idea to bring some materials of your own (and, of course, it's always a good idea to bring a notebook and pencil).

 

Yes, affluence means "wealth, well-to-do, rich, etc." However, in the context of language learning, it means "rich, wealthy, well-to-do" in knowledge, not money.

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here, but I'm genuinely curious. Do you have a citation for this usage? I googled it and the only thing I found was claiming that "affluent" is incorrect if applied to language learning (here).

[Ruben von Zwack]

Just something I wonder regarding language partners and exchanges: would a "normal" person (as in, not a professional teacher) be ruthless enough to correct you all the time? And can they help with accents, anyway?

One example, my Chinese teacher in Beijing told me to hold the tongue differently improve tongue position for ch and zh. A very common problem, they said.

 

So I guess every Chinese person I talked to before noticed my accent there, but didn't say anything because a) they wouldn't know what caused the problem, and how to get rid of it, anyway, b) I can still be understood fine.

 

What I mean to say is, I worry that without professional guidance in the beginning, some mistakes may go uncorrected and become habits.

[roddy]

That's a very smart concern to have. I think you can do a lot with non-professionals, but you'll want to guide them. Don't expect them to point stuff out, ask them which words you could improve on. Don't take none for an answer. Then break that word down - if they single out 张 say a bunch of zh- words and a bunch of -ang words and a bunch of first tone words and try and see exactly where the problem is. 

[Demonic_Duck]

One example, my Chinese teacher in Beijing told me to hold the tongue differently for ch and zh. A very common problem, they said.

Are you saying that holding the tongue in the same position for zh and ch finals is incorrect? So... it's a very common problem because everyone (including native speakers) does it? I'm not sure I follow...

[Ruben von Zwack]

 

Are you saying that holding the tongue in the same position for zh and ch finals is incorrect?

 

Blimey, sorry, it's my English. No, of course not!

What I meant to say was, I was making the same mistake for both sounds, ch as well as zh, so he made me hold the tongue differently than I used to do before. Same (now improved) position for both. Common problem, as in with Germans, it seems.

Went back to the sentence and tried to fix it. Seems I could use some English grammar lessons in addition to the Chinese ones!

[laurenth]

For now, the top two areas I believe I should focus on would be:

1) Ancient History / Early Civilization

2) Art and Art History

 

You may be interested by this series: 国宝档案. It's available on Youtube. The host speaks very slowly and clearly. Each episode is short, at about 10 minutes. You have subtitles. And it's quite interesting.