Is Chinese an asset for you in your work outside China?

[ZhangKaiRong]

Hey everybody,

 

I don't know whether or not this topic should be in this main thread, but I opened it here, so please, roddy, move it if it should be elsewhere, thx.

 

I'm struggling for some time to open this discussion, because it's a little sensitive topic on a forum about learning Chinese, but whatever. The main question is quite provoking: why on earth do we learn Chinese apart from the joy of learning an exotic language? I'm getting frustrated as hell in my home country, because it seems that no one gives a damn about my Chinese knowledge in my work.

 

And I'm not the only one. I met some friends two weeks ago, who also studied in China for a year, and speak quite good Chinese. There is an engineer guy, he is far the most talented engineer I've ever met. Apart from being good in a technical way, he also speaks a lot of languages on a high level, including rare Asian ones (Vietnamese and Korean). He applied for some companies in the car industry, mainly the big german ones. He was rejected everywhere, and he was quite shocked: why?! At one of those companies, the HR generalist told him during the interview that they were pleased with his resume and skills, but because he could speak Mandarin and Cantonese, the risk of leaking technology to the Chinese after resigning the job was so high that the management simply wouldn't agree to employ him.

 

This was far the worst story I've heard, but to be honest, the situation in the financial services industry and production industry isn't much better. My other friend is working for a MNC in the production industry, the profile of the company is cosmetics. They have a lot of Chinese partners, but the management simply doesn't let him help with the Chinese guests. The motto is that a manager can handle everything, even if he doesn't have a clue about Chinese language, Chinese culture or Chinese etiquette. Oh, and of course, English language can solve everything, even if the guests don't speak it that well. I'm working in the financial services industry (at one of the four biggest consulting companies, actually), and I have the same experience. Managers who don't have a clue on Chinese get promoted to work in China, because years spent at the company can outshine language and intercultural skills. Being unable to communicate with the locals, so being unable to do your job is not that serious, of course not!

 

And I'm really pissed off and frustrated like hell that people with actual knowledge on this country and language don't have a chance to prove that these things can be handled better. The other problem is that during the last 20 years, a generation of young Chinese has grown up here, they were educated here, know the cultural differences as well, and they are able to speak Chinese, English and the local language fluently. Well, for some of them, English is a problem, but the local language and Chinese are like mothertongues for them. So we got some serious competition here. Jobs that require Chinese knowledge are both filled by these young and smart 华裔.

 

Is it the same in your home country as well, or just my one is this fcked up? I mean, learning Chinese is not an easy task, it requires a high amount of time and energy, and it's a shame that it doesn't give you any kind of advantage - and as you can see, it can give you some disadvantage in certain jobs.

 

Please, don't misunderstand me, learning Chinese was, is (and will be) a pleasure hobby for me, but since I started to work at a company with Chinese connections, I dreamt to do a job concerning China, and of course, getting back to China to develop my professional career further, but since no chance is given, it seems impossible to make this dream come true... It makes me sad and disappointed...

[icebear]

So we got some serious competition here. Jobs that require Chinese knowledge are both filled by these young and smart 华裔.

I think unless you're based in China, there's no reason to expected Chinese to be an important part of your skill set (there will be exceptions, of course).

 

Outside of China, assuming no sensitivities, just hire a 华裔 if Chinese is genuinely a large component of the job. 

 

And I'm really pissed off and frustrated like hell that people with actual knowledge on this country and language don't have a chance to prove that these things can be handled better. 

It may be the case that people with an affinity for China aren't necessarily the best operators on China related projects/deals. Example one: in consulting, a Chinese firm might only engage a foreign firm because it wants an outside/Western perspective, with a Chinese speaking rep confusing that. Example two: in negotiation, a Chinese firm may be able to secure a better deal for its side by taking advantage of the Western negotiators affection for China (i.e. hoodwinking them).

 

Actually, it sounds like having decent Chinese is exactly as helpful job wise as it is in China: in specific circumstances, crucial, and in all other cases only an advantage if you're at least as good in other regards (skills/connections/seniority) as your immediate competition.

 

Studying Chinese for career advancement alone isn't a wise investment - and I'm guessing that's not a new thing.

[gato]

but because he could speak Mandarin and Cantonese, the risk of leaking technology to the Chinese after resigning the job was so high that the management simply wouldn't agree to employ him.

Is this person ethnic Chinese? If so, that's more a story of racial discrimination than Chinese not being useful.

Chinese skills can be a plus factor, but your other skills, experiences and relationships will likely be the main factors for getting a non-language job such as consulting or engineering. You probably just have to be more patient. I gather from your previous posts that you are only 1 or 2 years into your Big 4 consulting job. If you keep at it and do a good job, you should have more choices in a few more years. It's natural that management don't want junior guys handling clients even though they may have the language skills because they want to keep the client relationships for themselves. Such relationships are what allow people to rise up the ranks. If your language skills allow you to gain clients, then great, but you can't expect other people to hand over their client relationships just because of your language skills. You are going to have to be more patient.

[ZhangKaiRong]

You quite misunderstand my point, icebear all of the above examples, there are skills AND Chinese knowledge together - which should be a good combination. Maybe my expectations were overheated, but in Europe you are told everywhere that learning Chinese in addition to your profession will be a good combination. But as the examples indicate, it is not the case. The biggest WTF was my engineer friend's story, where Chinese was like a backfire. He got a job at an other Western firm after getting rid of the passage of Chinese language knowledge from his CV.

I can't be more specific on my work on an open board, but you are not on the right track, the service we offer to the Chinese client is not that traditional consulting one. But I see your point as well.

There are days when I think about quitting my job and applying for a master's in China at a top10 university, but I'm afraid that it wouldn't be the best decision career-wise either... But chances to go back to China from this place without your MNC's help seems impossible for me in 5 years.

[大肚男]

I thought Chinese would be good for me in the job market when I was applying for PMF and FSO jobs.

now that I'm not looking into that line is work anymore, I dint see Chinese being useful for me in a professional sense.

However,I continue to learn Chinese because my girlfriend and all our mutual friends are Chinese, and without a working knowledge of Chinese I would be left out of most conversations

[Baron]

Would you feel the same way if you spoke French or Danish and it wasn't advancing you career? Are you you haven't just subscribed to the whole 'Chinese-is-the-way-of-the-future' mythology?

 

Sure we Chinese learners often want to use our Chinese at work, but there aren't a huge amount of situations in which there would be an advantage of having a non-native speaker just for the sake of their non-nativeness. Maybe being a tour guide, but would you really want to?

 

To answer your original question, yes, Chinese has helped me in my work, a lot. Chiefly work that has absolutely nothing to do with China or Chinese. It's something that stands out on the CV and it makes people think I must have preternatural intelligence (ha), even those who are themselves fluent in several European languages.

 

If you look at is as another asset to help nail jobs, it's a huge bonus. If you want to get a job that hinges on it, you're going to be up against a lot of a lot of BBCs/ABCs etc.

 

You've got to look at it in the right way

[Silent]

 

but in Europe you are told everywhere that learning Chinese in addition to your profession will be a good combination.

Everywhere? Sure some people that are not in a position to judge say so. People that are in the know don't. Chinese may be usefull in the jobmarket in two ways. It may help your C.V. stand out from the rest or if you apply for a position where Chinese is needed.

 

Language skills are only a very minor (if any at all) consideration for most positions. That is after you've mastered English and the local language. The local language as that's often the working language and English for all international contacts. Other languages are virtually useless for most jobs unless you have intensive customer contacts in specific language area or the language is core knowledge required for the job (e.g. teaching, translating, intelligence gathering etc).

 

 

I mean, learning Chinese is not an easy task, it requires a high amount of time and energy, and it's a shame that it doesn't give you any kind of advantage

Maybe you're looking in the wrong place for the advantage? I think learning a language gives better insight in a culture, gives access to other ideas and worldviews. It is a way for broadening your horizon, for personal development. If you're after immediate career opportunities other studies may very well be far more useful. But also for these other studies, it has to fit the position(s) you want. Just 'random' study brings little to no career advantage, on a CV it may signal lack of focus or different interests and thus being an disadvantage.

 

 

and as you can see, it can give you some disadvantage in certain jobs.

Every study opens new career opportunities and 'cuts' others. If you choose a finance study you cut the engineering jobs. The moment you get a masters degree you over-qualify for many of the lower skilled jobs. If you put mandarin skills on your C.V. H.R. people will have prejudices about it and consequently (de)select you for a position that's the way it works. That's why they advice to tweak the CV for every job application. If it won't help you get rid of it as it may hurt you.

[戴 睿]

Am I really the only one who finds the "friend getting denied a job because of language proficiency" ridiculous?

I'm sorry but I have such a difficult time believing that. As if any of those big name Chinese firms would find it any more difficult to buy off an English speaker with no Chinese proficiency. I highly, highly doubt that someone would be passed over for a job for their ability to speak chinese. Instead, I find it much more likely that he was unqualified for ill-fitting for the German firm in some other way, possible corresponding to an internal criteria that he (the applicant himself) was not entirely aware of.

[ZhangKaiRong]

Maybe there were other factors, but it was what the HR generalist told him (white lie maybe?). And he got more interview chances after he tweaked out parts of the language section in his resume. Maybe it's just coincidence.

 

@gato: the problem is when you gain clients due to skills related to Chinese, there is always a senior collegue who feels himself competent and reaps the benefits of your work in the end. In recruiting clients, it is hard to find a balance as a junior, so it's not an option.

[rahxephon]

Since returning home from China after 4 years, I've been looking for jobs in the U.S. that can utilize my Chinese and other (mostly irrelevant) skills for the past several months, but have had no such luck. The vast majority of jobs that have bilingual requirements are specifically for Chinese-Americans because they are very low-paying. No one expects someone who isn't Chinese to spend years learning Mandarin only to come back to their home country to work for $12/hr. The rest of the jobs that see Chinese proficiency as an asset also require several years experience in whatever industry it's in. The dilemma, then, is that you've spent years learning the language and have now returned home. Are you going to be able to keep your level high enough for however long it takes to find something? There are few locations in the States where you'd actively be able to use the language, and they're all very expensive places to live. 

 

That's pretty much the situation I'm in right now. I've had a few job offers. Mostly in marketing, sales, and public relations. No connections to China or Asia. I suppose I can understand if I don't get to use the language directly, but surely I thought there would be something related (even loosely) to what I've centered my interests and studies around the past 8 years. I knew I was sailing mostly uncharted waters and hoping for the best, but now it seems I'm just drifting in the middle of nowhere. 

 

I studied International Relations and Chinese with the intent of possibly doing the Foreign Service thing, or even the FBI. Those take ages to get into, however, and there is no guarantee you'll even be able to land those. Though it seems that going the business route is much more difficult if you're trying to use the language. You'll have to be in a management position before they'll consider sending you overseas, which could take 3+ years. Government jobs seem to have a lot more opportunities, but are very difficult to get. There is the U.S. military (Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard) that will utilize people who can speak a foreign language...but you have to like being in the military. 

 

In the end, I'm not even sure how to approach the situation anymore. I'm afraid of getting stuck in some boring sales job whilst my Chinese rots away, and nothing to do but regale people of stories about how I used to be able to speak it fluently, and how cool and interesting my life used to be. And I'm afraid nothing will ever again top that experience. Fuck. 

[戴 睿]

I am surprised at how little academia is discussed on here.

Chinese proficiency could be a fantastic asset in doing joint research with Chinese institutions/colleagues in almost any field of study. The fact that most people had to dedicate as much time and effort as they did to become fluent seems to presuppose that they have an affinity for scholarly pursuits anyway (like any rule, I'm sure this has exceptions).

I would imagine that there are venerable gold minds of opportunity in Academia all over the world, assuming you have other interests and passions worth researching. And even if you don't, there's always linguistics.

Professors on the tenure track generally are paid very well, and they get to spend each day pursuing the things they love.

Granted, I find teaching to be exhilarating, so maybe that sort of thing is more appealing to me than it would be to others.

Still, I chose to study Chinese out of interest and a passion for the people and culture. Not as a "guarantee" to have a successful business career.

[Guest realmayo]

Yes it's hard to think of jobs outside of China where speaking decent Chinese is not a requirement but is a massive bonus. Try to keep the language skills up and make sure you're learning or getting experience in a completely separate field, and then you've probably got a decent chance of getting a nice job in China after a while. But probably not that helpful at home.

Managers who don't have a clue on Chinese get promoted to work in China, because years spent at the company can outshine language and intercultural skills. 

It's possible that makes sense from the company's point of view. Once you're a manager though.....

[ZhangKaiRong]

It depends on where you live. In my home country, academic research is quite looked down if it is unrelated to "hard" sciences, and the funds for social science researches are extra limited.

As I stated in my first post, I also chose to study Chinese as an interest and not as something related to business career. But I guess it's understandable that I would like to do a job related to China, if it is possible.

[Ruben von Zwack]

#8

 

 Am I really the only one who finds the "friend getting denied a job because of language proficiency" ridiculous?

 

Let this German here assure you that I do not find anything ridiculous about the story.

Maybe it was a "white lie" but then again it is telling that they chose this lie. Or maybe the human resources guy was even trying to help, so that the friend can remove it from his CV.

[skylee]

I think the things mentioned in #1 sound quite normal.  The things mentioned in #10 also sound quite normal.

 

Regarding academia mentioned in #11, I guess people would have to be really good at Chinese (generally in all aspects including reading, writing, speaking, listening, history, literature, etc) to be able to do research in or teach things related to Chinese, right?  If this is not right, that would just confirm what I suspect. 

[Baron]

@rahxephon  - "No one expects someone who isn't Chinese to spend years learning Mandarin only to come back to their home country to work for $12/hr."

 

Why not? You don't get rewarded for your effort. Well done, you spent years learning Chinese have a 60$/hr job. You pay is related to the value you deliver to the institution/person who pays you. If there are 2 candidates, and one is a native bilingual and the other is someone who's spend years to get to a fairly decent standard, possibly at the expense of developing other professional skills/experience, who are you going to pick?

 

Let me give you some career advice, because if you see yourself heading towards sales you need it. Use that IR degree to get an internship or entry level job in some kind of diplomacy-related organisation or a reputable high profile NGO. Take on all the work you can, go to every even and meet everyone. Keep at it, and apply for better positions when they come up. Keep improving your Chinese. You may get into the FBI/FCO whatever, or you may end up in some other organisation, or academia, but in 10 years time you'll be much better off than you would be if you go into sales/entry level PR/marketing. Stop saying things are 'difficult to get' or 'take a long time'. Focus yourself or the acme of your career is going to be 'team leader in telesales department' and you'll be working such long hours that you won't have time to even study/use Chinese outside work.

 

IR is a good degree, use it.

 

 

@戴睿长老

 

Agreed, academia is a decent choice, but only for those with a lot of commitment as tenured jobs are becoming rarer. Worth it once you're in there though.

 

For job availability and security there's always high school teaching.

[renzhe]

Professors on the tenure track generally are paid very well, and they get to spend each day pursuing the things they love.

Sure, but so do movie stars. The difficult part is becoming one ;)

[戴 睿]

 

 

Sure, but so do movie stars. The difficult part is becoming one ;) 

 

I would say that it is significantly easier to become a professor than a movie star. 

#15:

 

I think that if you developed a skill set or specialization outside of your Chinese (which I guess is what this entire thread is boiling down to), then you could use your Chinese as a tool which would allow you to collaborate with native Chinese Professors. Outside of that, it is very common for Graduate Students, Research Assistants, and Professors to use language abilities to research their individual fields in a foreign language.

What I'm saying is that, in the field of Academia, you don't need to limit your research to "all subjects relating to Chinese." Instead, you could use your language capacity to research, say, data on a specific research topic, generated by the Chinese. Or what Chinese experts in the past have had to say about said research topic. Or team up with current Chinese-born colleagues for a collaborative project. 

 

#16:

 

I'm going to hop on board with the IR degree train, and back the advice to go get involved in some sort of diplomacy.

 

You could use your Chinese proficiency to pursue graduate-level study in China, and take that expertise into the fields of foreign policy in your home nation. 

In the above two examples, (academia and foreign policy) the Chinese language is used as a tool to access some other field of specialization. It's a lot more logical than the idea that "I speak Chinese so if I go into business I bet I'll have x opportunity and get rich because Chinese people love to buy stuff."

[gato]

I'm going to hop on board with the IR degree train, and back the advice to go get involved in some sort of diplomacy.

You need more information about the person you are giving career advice to before giving such blanket advice. Not everyone is cut out to be a professor or a diplomat.

[戴 睿]

"The main question is quite provoking: why on earth do we learn Chinese apart from the joy of learning an exotic language?"

I feel that the two things I suggested are two possible routes you could take Chinese, and qualify as answers to the main question. I hadn't intended for them to be phrased as "blanket advice."