Is Chinese an asset for you in your work outside China?

[Baron]

It's better advice than telling someone to go work in some crap telesales job or office dogsbody until they 'decide what they want out of life' or something. And the receiver of all the advice did choose that as a degree, presumably for a reason.

 

You're right, not everyone is cut out for being a professor or a diplomat. But not everyone is cut out for the soul-destroying minimum wage jobs that many graduates end up in. Surely it's better to end up in an 80k pa job that you're not cut out for rather than a 20k pa job, and a job that will give you more avenues into other fields rather than a dead end.

 

What would you advice for the guy be, gato?

[Silent]

 

What would you advice for the guy be, gato?

I'm not Gato, but to be honest I'm not under the impression OP is asking for advise. He only concluded that Chinese has no added value for his career and seems to be frustrated about it. As a result he's wondering why we study Chinese. So maybe the advise should be the obvious. First think about the added value, how a study helps achieving your goals (career or personal) before committing a substantial amount of time/money to it.

[geraldc]

It seems to have helped Kevin Rudd, Douglas Hurd and Dashan. I can't think of anyone else.

[rahxephon]

@Baron

 

"If there are 2 candidates, and one is a native bilingual and the other is someone who's spend years to get to a fairly decent standard, possibly at the expense of developing other professional skills/experience, who are you going to pick?"

 

Depends on the job, but I would guess the native bilingual. If it's for a call center or working the front desk in some office, why would you want someone who isn't a native speaker? Those are the jobs that pay $12/hr, and they are everywhere. 

 

 

"Let me give you some career advice, because if you see yourself heading towards sales you need it. Use that IR degree to get an internship or entry level job in some kind of diplomacy-related organisation or a reputable high profile NGO. Take on all the work you can, go to every even and meet everyone. Keep at it, and apply for better positions when they come up. Keep improving your Chinese. You may get into the FBI/FCO whatever, or you may end up in some other organisation, or academia, but in 10 years time you'll be much better off than you would be if you go into sales/entry level PR/marketing. Stop saying things are 'difficult to get' or 'take a long time'. Focus yourself or the acme of your career is going to be 'team leader in telesales department' and you'll be working such long hours that you won't have time to even study/use Chinese outside work.

 

IR is a good degree, use it."

 

I feel like I've actually been looking for this type of work for the past 6 months. Even applied to a couple of them and had no luck. I don't know if it's just super competitive, or I don't write my cover letters well enough, or what, but my efforts have proven fruitless thus far. If you happen to have information on something else that might be suitable, please let me know. The problem now is that I'm getting restless (I live with my parents), and my money is slowly depleting. With these sales and marketing jobs breathing down my neck I'm almost tempted to try one just to have something to do, even though I know I probably wouldn't like it. The job I'm interviewing for now is an entry-level sales recruiter position with a big staffing firm. 

 

One issue might be with my location. There aren't any of those diplomacy-like jobs around here, which means I'd have to relocate. This isn't a big deal at all if I could secure a position first, but I think many organizations give preference to local candidates. As for internships, I would consider one if they were paid, but lack of funds means it's impossible if they aren't. 

 

How the hell do you quote properly in this thing? 

[gato]

Non-profit jobs are often more competitive than private sector jobs. NGOs rely on donations and grants to pay salaries. Their resources are more limited and thus don't have openings for permanent hires that often and are very choosy when they do.

If you are US citizen and want to join the diplomatic corp, isn't the standard route to take the foreign services test? There are many more applicants than openings here, too.

You just need to have a realistic assessment of your strengths and weaknesses in the job market and look for your niche. It's not healthy to view 99% of jobs available as soul-crushing and focus your attention only on the 1% (it also implies that you think most people have crushed souls, which would be presumptuous and arrogant.) There is not anything necessarily wrong with working to earn a living rather than to fulfill your soul.

[rahxephon]

Yes, for the Foreign Service you need to take a test along with multiple other assessments and interviews. I know a couple people who have made it through, but it definitely wasn't easy. Their language ability helped them get more points later on in the process. Though work in the FS is a major commitment, not really something you pursue just to see if you'd like it or not. 

 

I think you get definitely get spoiled working (teaching) in China as well. Decent money, comfortable but exciting lifestyle. And you get to use your Chinese all you want. Maybe it's not the career you want in the long-term, but it definitely beats boring, low-paying jobs back in the U.S. I'd probably have a much different perspective 4 years ago. 

[imron]

When I returned to my home country after an extended time in China and started looking for work I had two options - look for something where I could use my Chinese or look for something in software development (what my background and qualifications are in).  Software development jobs basically paid double what I could get in a job that utilised my Chinese so it was kind of a no-brainer - especially because software development is also something I like to do.

 

I've actually had the opportunity to use my Chinese on a couple of occasions for work related things (outside of the work I do on Chinese learning tools) which is always a nice little thing when it happens, but learning and maintaining Chinese remains purely in the interest category for me, which is fine, because that's always been my motivation anyway.

[rahxephon]

I kind of regret not following through with an IT degree instead of IR now. I switched about halfway through my sophomore year in college. They are both things I'm interested in, but I probably would have never studied Chinese formally had I done IT because of schedule conflicts. Nor would I have made the excuse to apply for the scholarship that allowed me to go to China in the first place. I just thought my chances of incorporating the language studies into my future work would be greater with an IR degree. Now I can pick from a great assortment of sales positions. 

[tysond]

I know some guys who learned Chinese, studied law, worked their way up through law firms from the very bottom for 20 years, until they are partner level with fully fluent Chinese.

 

And they have trouble getting any benefit from their Chinese outside of China.  Have found it difficult to relocate back home actually, because their career doesn't make as much sense in an English speaking environment.  Who's gonna pay extra for Chinese when you don't need it to settle legal disputes in English?  I suspect one day they will find someone who needs this, and move, but it's a multi-year thing.  Or otherwise they'll end up with management and leadership skills being their forte rather than bilingual lawyering.

 

If you really want to design the perfect job that uses all your skills, I think that self-employment is probably the best bet.  At that point... you really discover how valuable people think your contribution is.   But if you work for someone else, you are a commodity, and have to build up a long term advantage over all the other people who are competing with you.

[Simon_CH]

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So we got some serious competition here. Jobs that require Chinese knowledge are both filled by these young and smart 华裔.

I think unless you're based in China, there's no reason to expected Chinese to be an important part of your skill set (there will be exceptions, of course).

 

Outside of China, assuming no sensitivities, just hire a 华裔 if Chinese is genuinely a large component of the job. 

 

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And I'm really pissed off and frustrated like hell that people with actual knowledge on this country and language don't have a chance to prove that these things can be handled better. 

It may be the case that people with an affinity for China aren't necessarily the best operators on China related projects/deals. Example one: in consulting, a Chinese firm might only engage a foreign firm because it wants an outside/Western perspective, with a Chinese speaking rep confusing that. Example two: in negotiation, a Chinese firm may be able to secure a better deal for its side by taking advantage of the Western negotiators affection for China (i.e. hoodwinking them).

 

Actually, it sounds like having decent Chinese is exactly as helpful job wise as it is in China: in specific circumstances, crucial, and in all other cases only an advantage if you're at least as good in other regards (skills/connections/seniority) as your immediate competition.

 

Studying Chinese for career advancement alone isn't a wise investment - and I'm guessing that's not a new thing.

 

 

 

I agree with Icebear's assessment, I am still not sure what benefit (if any) Chinese language ability has for job-seekers abroad or even in China.

 

I too work for a European business services and consulting company here in China, and none of the foreign-employed staff speak Chinese. Most expats I meet in various industries are nowhere near fluency either and don't use Chinese professionally. it seems a valid observation that you don't get hired for speaking Chinese as a foreigner in international companies located in China at least.  

 

If we hire locally we only hired native Chinese speakers who have studied abroad and are fluent in at least one additional language, mostly two, but even then they still have very different skill-sets than the expats working for our company. So there is very little risk of getting replaced by locals so far, however talented they may be.  

 

I think the whole point of engaging a foreign consultancy is that you expect them to work differently, i.e. not Chinese; they expect you  to not sugarcoat stuff or neutralize important points due to sensitivities, they want you to work according to international standards and not localize too much.(or at least pretend to) 

Of course you have to know the ins and outs of the local industries / your clients, but there is a difference between knowing and adapting to local (business) culture, and whether you want it or not, you'll have to localize to a point anyway, so many companies feel there isn't much need of hiring people with special cultural skills. 

 

There is also a serious risk of leakages and side deals with your Chinese clients and partners in many industries. As someone else has mentioned, as a German engineer you are not only not expected, it's even a drawback to speak Chinese. And that's not paranoid cold war thinking, it's just sound business practice, as everyone who has worked in China can probably confirm. 

 

In conclusion, (sorry for my rambling, written in a haste as I'm at work..) for all I can see there is practically zero career value in learning Chinese for me here, apart from my private life, which would be much easier, carefree if I spoke better Chinese. 

[Simon_CH]

I think this lack of important of Chinese will endure until the business world thinks it has something to learn from Chinese business practices, rather than just having to adapt to it when in China. 

 

There are a few Japanese words every international managers knows, mostly related to quality control and processes, and succesfully adapting some of these management methods would be a major career boost. But there isn't yet anything to come out of China that would make it into business bibles, guangxi is certainly widely known as a word/rough concept but hasn't really had an impact outside of China. 

And as long as it's more about teaching than learning the only international business language is and remains English. 

[icebear]

One issue might be with my location. There aren't any of those diplomacy-like jobs around here, which means I'd have to relocate. This isn't a big deal at all if I could secure a position first, but I think many organizations give preference to local candidates. As for internships, I would consider one if they were paid, but lack of funds means it's impossible if they aren't. 

If you're serious about IR, you need to move where it's in demand (probably before you have an offer - and prepared to search for a few months). That means either your regional political/financial capital, or to China (BJ/SH). Same goes for using your Chinese.

 

To add to the above - there certainly are jobs where good-fluent Chinese is a hard requirement for a native-level English speaker (every foreigner in my office), although these are a smaller part of the expat pie here.

[Ruben von Zwack]

As for ideas -

From several friends who did this, I hear internships at the UN in Paris and in Vienna are kind of easy to get, and also internships at the German Chamber of Commerce (in their offices in the respective countries). Not telling you to try at the Germans, but I guess the US should have an institution like that, too?

Of course it requires a bit of mobility, but they are paid, and life in those cities can be cheap.

 

From what my friends explained me, these internships are sort of easy to get because they are what we call "Durchlauferhitzer". Not sure how to translate that into English - "Continuous-flow water heater", "Geyser". Hope the picture makes sense. But I imagine it looks nice in a CV.

[Baron]

@rahxephon #24

 

No idea how to quote. Tell me if you find out.

 

@gato  #25

 

I certainly didn't imply that '99% of people have crushed souls'. You should find that I referred to minimum wage jobs as soul crushing. OK, to be fair, their are probably some people who enjoy their minimum wage job, but on the whole graduates don't tend to enjoy jobs that are unchallenging and unfulfilling, have poor remuneration and no benefits and perhaps zero hour contracts, completely unrelated to their fields of interests and expertise. I certainly didn't imply that if you're not working your dream job you're miserable.

 

I doubt that many people do fully achieve their ambitions, or end up in the position they want to be in, however it's better to try to utilise your skills and experience to progress through a field your interested rather than junking your degree and following the path of least resistance into a potentially dead end job. Sure you might get lucky and end up in a company or career you find you enjoy, but it's a pretty big thing to leave to chance.

 

Also, I disagree that the competitiveness of a certain field should deter people. It's like saying "Oxbridge is too competitive, you should aim for Middlesex uni instead". When you have 2000 applicants applying for a handful of jobs in Costa coffee, the word 'competitive' becomes a bit meaningless.

[Silent]

For quoting push the text bulb in the editor toolbar (lower row, right of the middle) and paste the text to quote.

 

 

Also, I disagree that the competitiveness of a certain field should deter people. It's like saying "Oxbridge is too competitive, you should aim for Middlesex uni instead". When you have 2000 applicants applying for a handful of jobs in Costa coffee, the word 'competitive' becomes a bit meaningless.

 

Competitiveness should not deter people perse, but I think competitiveness should be a consideration. There is little point for a job application where you have (virtually) no chance to get hired.

[skylee]

however it's better to try to utilise your skills and experience to progress through a field your interested rather than junking your degree and following the path of least resistance into a potentially dead end job. Sure you might get lucky and end up in a company or career you find you enjoy, but it's a pretty big thing to leave to chance.

 

Somehow this reminds me of this → 機關算盡太聰明，反誤了卿卿性命。

[Ruben von Zwack]

 

however it's better to try to utilise your skills and experience to progress through a field your interested rather than junking your degree and following the path of least resistance into a potentially dead end job

 

I wish to add, one's got plenty of time to junk their degree and take a random sales job when everything else fails - like, the next 30, 40 years of your life. I don't see the hurry for someone who's relatively freshly graduated

[戴 睿]

You know, I'd actually be really interested to hear if anybody knows of any international economics/politics related internships in China for undergraduate students worth pursuing/applying for.

[icebear]

Chambers of Commerce (for any country). Present in BJ, SH, and usually a few tier-2 cities, depending on the country.

[Lu]

You know, I'd actually be really interested to hear if anybody knows of any international economics/politics related internships in China for undergraduate students worth pursuing/applying for.

Chamber of Commerce, embassies and consulates (no idea if US embassies take interns, but European ones certainly do), large companies, UN and its affiliates (sure, they're probably hard to get into, but you can always try), EU 'embassy', thinktanks & research institutes. Also consider Taiwan. Also consider research institutes back home: if you have a plan for a topic you want to research for them and that requires Chinese, they may be happy to take you on for the duration of your topic. And don't wait for any of those places to put up a vacancy for an intern, just send an open application.

 

There are a number of organisations in China that arrange internships for foreigners (for a fee). One that comes to mind is the Hutong School, but I'm sure there are others.

 

I find the story of the guy who got turned down for speaking Chinese rather ridiculous. Either the manager was an idiot who really was that paranoid, or that was just an excuse because they couldn't/wouldn't give the real reason. Do they really believe language is a barrier when a Chinese company wants to buy someone? And do they just hand sensitive information to new employees without getting an idea of how loyal and reliable they are?