Will Chinese ever master English?

[Outofin]

Sometimes I feel so desperate about English learning. When I talk to my friends living in China, I recognize their English are unacceptable, although they've learned the language for at least 10 years. Even the Chinese living in the US still have troubles with English. Most people here stop learning when they reach a level of communication without misunderstanding. I think east asian are mostly not good at the language. Is it merely a problem of English education, English speaking enviroment, or English is inherently not compatiple with our mother languages? People have been saying that Chinese will catch up on outsourcing like Indians because we're goint to master English in large scale. Will it ever happen? I'm not confident with this.

[gato]

Don't despair, Outofin. I think what matters the most is your environment, which affects how much you get to practice the particular language you're learning. Most Chinese immigrants in the West work in environments that require only minimal English language skills and usually only socialize with other Chinese, and so they don't get the kind of practice that's needed to improve.

English learners in China tend to concentrate on reading and, to some extent, writing, and don't spend as much time with speaking and listening. If they did, they would be much better. No question about it. English grammar is fairly logical. Its vocabulary is not loaded with nearly as much historical baggage as Chinese is. I think it should take much less brain power and certainly less time to master English than it does to master Chinese. It's true that pronunciation and accents are hard to master for the older students. I think the problem in China, though, is that most English teachers there have bad pronunciations/accents themselves, so it's hard for their students to learn properly. And after many years of speaking with the wrong pronunciation and intonation, it's hard for the students to change, even after they've lived in a place like the U.S. or Britain. It's not genetics, though.

[runner]

Most people never master a foreign language. I guess that's why it's foreign

I'm from the US. How many people (I mean the many millions of immigrants) from everywhere 'master' English? Few to none. How many can write or speak at near native fluency? Far under .01% in my experience and most of my friends are from other countries originally. It's only the Michael Jordans and Mozarts of language learning who do.

I can speak 'fluently' in Chinese, but I clearly have a foreign accent and I will always make dumb mistakes. I write letters in Chinese all the time, but I know there must be plenty of goofy spots in them.

I would look at language learning like aging. Do what you can to combat it, but accept reality for what it is.

No, China will never replace India or the Phillipines for outsourcing. No one even suggests such a thing. History . . .

[wushijiao]

I think China can catch up to India on the outsourcing of English-based business. After all, India only has 30 million or so people who speak well enough to do outsourced jobs in English. In the long-run, China could match this, I think, with Shanghai, Beijing and a few other cities having fairly good levels of English. The rest of the country, especially rural areas, however, will never be able to communicate well in English. In other words, China is creating a situation in which a relatively small elite of 20-100 million can communicate in English well, while the vast majority will be left behind.

Last summer I went up to Heilongjiang to teach at a training center. The center's goal was to improve the pronunciation and teaching methods of Chinese people who teach English. Many of the teachers couldn't understand "What is your English name?" or "Where are you from?", yet, somehow, they were teaching hundreds of young students each back in their farming towns. I'm not trying to belittle their English levels because most of their schools didn't have the resources to provide tapes, CDs, movies and other learning tools to their students.

Some of the more advanced teachers we taught went on to pass some qualification test that enabled them to teach at better jobs. Thus, many of them would then leave their farms and small towns to teach in big cities. So, for any person with a high level of English, it would be hard choice to stay in a small farm earning 400-800RMB per month, compared to 1,000-1,500 in the cities. So teaching-wise, the best speakers of English, and the best Chinese and foreign teachers will end up in the cities in which schools pay the most.

I don't think any of this would be important if English weren't already a component of the 高考 (the college entrance exam) and numerous other tests. Smart kids from the countryside (and kids of migrant workers) will be left behind, and be at a serious disadvantage on the 高考 compared to the rich city kids. Everybody talks about the disparity in wealth in China. But, in my opinion, the education system, and the teaching-English system in particular, as it stands now, could institutionalize the wealth disparity for generations to come.

Is it merely a problem of English education, English speaking enviroment, or English is inherently not compatiple with our mother languages?

It's a combination of those. It works the other way, too. In Shanghai, many ex-pats' start learning Chinese fairly quickly, but after they can get by, their Chinese level plateaus.

In any case, Outofin, it seems to me like you have pretty good English. Keep up the good work!

[Quest]

No, China will never replace India or the Phillipines for outsourcing.

China is taking a different path, I don't think China has to beat India on this.

[relus]

What about the question.. will americans ever master chinese?

[hakkaboy]

I don't understand the question? I have met many, many mainland Chinese with word perfect English, but I have never met any Westerner with perfect Chinese.

[HashiriKata]

If our only purpose in life is to master a foreign language to perfection, then I'm sure we can master any language whatsoever. However, relatively speaking, with very dissimilar languages such as English and Chinese, it's not easy to sound like a native but ultimately, nothing is impossible.

[dalaowai]

Hakkaboy: This recent generation of urban Chinese have been studying English since Kindergarten up to high school. To answer your question, the majority of Westerners don't study Chinese between the ages of 3 to 18. It's more difficult to learn a language when you're older.

I find it curious as a lot of money is being spent on teaching a second language. Back home we have immersion programs where English speaking children study French starting at Kindergarten. They graduate from highschool fluent in two or more languages, without any thick accents.

Also for example, I've met many Danes, Swedes, Fins, Germans, etc, that can speak perfect English with a small accent.

[wushijiao]

Hakkaboy: This recent generation of urban Chinese have been studying English since Kindergarten up to high school. To answer your question, the majority of Westerners don't study Chinese between the ages of 3 to 18. It's more difficult to learn a language when you're older.

I think this is the main point. Sure, I know a few dozen Chinese people that have almost perfect English. On the other hand, personally I know zero foreigners who have Chinese at that same level. Although I know tons of laowais who are learning Chinese, I only know one person who has been studying it for over a decade. That, in part, explains for the lack of great Chinese speakers. In the US at least, most people start in college. Very few high schools or junior highs offer Chinese, unfortunately.

As people in the West start to pick up studying Chinese at earlier ages, I'm sure proficiency will increase somewhat.

[Ferno]

As people in the West start to pick up studying Chinese at earlier ages, I'm sure proficiency will increase somewhat

I don't think there will ever be a big wave of westerners trying to study Chinese. America (and thus English) will always dominate, so it will be the Chinese always scrambling to learn English (some of this is pretty ridiculous, like PhD certificates in China almost always requiring mandatory English exams)

[gato]

I think English will survive even if the US's superiority does not. English is much easier to learn and to remember than Chinese or any other candidate for a world language that I can think of.

[florazheng]

Hi, yes, sometimes I feel quite frustrated about my English, to be more exactly, Chinglish. I can’t read the original English works as smoothly as Chinese ones. I also felt ashamed of my poor English before. But now, I don’t. Why do Chinese must speak English as fluent as native English speakers ? We Chinese, don’t have a gift for language? We Chinese are stupid than other nations regarding to language study? After asking my question by myself and visit this Chinese-learning forum, I said no to myself. And How many non native Chinese speakers learning Chinese can master Chinese well ?At least,many Chinese who learn English usually put up their questions on English in English in some English-learning forums. They discuss and respond in English mostly while I read many threads are almost in English here.

There were many illiterates in China, needless to say English speakers before as I know

And China just has resumed our English education for decades. China needs more time to adapt itself to the outside world. I don’t dare to say every Chinese will speak English fluently in the near future but China can communicate with the outside well soon, no matter in Chinglish or English. She is on the progress.

Meanwhile, I hope more people can study Chinese language and culture.

:roll:

[-(Shell)-]

I have communicated with alot of Chinese online through MSN messenger that wrote understandable English, but it wasn't anywhere near perfect. The thing is, I don't expect it to be. Right now i'm learning German and it isn't perfect, but who cares as long as I can be understood and people can understand me?

[Celso Pin]

Hoe many in the world, including the english speaking countries, speaks a perfect oxford english????... :mrgreen:

[-(Shell)-]

We can try8)

[Celso Pin]

and... how many in China master mandarim??? thats a good question since my chinese teacher told us we speak mandarim better then most south chinese...

[nipponman]

Hoe many in the world, including the english speaking countries, speaks a perfect oxford english????...

I think very few actually do. Fact is, not many native americans speak that well. I think the standard should be collouqial english, not oxford. I don't speak perfect english, but I speak better than most chinese do It has been my experience that chinese people have a hard time with the language. My two friends were raised on english and on chinese. Though this may seem like a good idea, I think it engrained (a real word?) within them some bad habits. Like in china, the say english words that have a l (le) on the end with an er. So, in chemistry, whenever I would ask her about mols, she would say,"5 mors" And I'd say,"what?" and she'd say"mors! 5 mors!" and I'd say, "huh??" and she'd point to the conversion and then I'd say, "Oh! 5 moles!" and she'd say, "Yeah, that's what I said." Also, the idea of infinitives and articles is hard for chinese people (in my experience). My friends had a hard time understanding the difference between, "read" and "to read" and when to use one or the other in a sentence.

nipponman

[wushijiao]

We Chinese, don’t have a gift for language? We Chinese are stupid than other nations regarding to language study?

Don't think so. Chinese people are as equally smart (or stupid) as all other nationalities. Most foreigners say Shanghainese, by Western linguistic standards, is another language. Therefore, most Chinese people that I know (in Shanghai) are at least bilingual in Putonghua and Shanghainese. Most of the students that I teach can communicate very well in English, even if it is not perfect. Who can say that Chinese are bad at languages if many are already bilingual?

I think the main reasons why some Chinese lack English ability:

1) bad teaching methods

2) lack of resources (money)

3) lack of a tradition of learning foreign languages (as you pointed out)

4) the fact that English and Chinese have almost nothing in common.

I think the fact that English and Chinese have nothing in common is the main reason. One of the books I'm reading right is "Empires of the World: A Language History of the World". (Here is a review):

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3738701

I think the main reason English-speaking people find it so hard to learn Chinese, and vice versa, is simply due to the factor of being in such different language families. For example, the Koran is the holiest book in the Muslim world. There are over 1 billion muslims worldwide. Arabic is seen by many as the only acceptable version of the Koran. Arabic also has huge cultural prestige. Why, then, can't all the Muslim world speak Arabic?

Well, according to the "Empires of the World", after Muhammed died, Islam and Arabic spread from the Middle East to Northern Africa to Europe and other parts of Asia. But, why does only a small portion of the Islamic world speak Arabic?

"In the long term there was subtle linguistic limit on Arab success, or rather on the success of Arabic. Arabic progressed from the language of the mosque to establish itself permanently as the common language vernacular of the people only in countries that had previously spoken some related language, one that belonged to the Afro-Asiatic (or Hamito-Semitic) family" (97).

Thus, only the people that spoke a lnaguge very siilar to Arabic learned Arabic. Perhaps this might be simialr to, say, the idea that Putonghua could displace a dialect of Chinese in a generation or two, but it would take centuries to displace Uighur, even though they are both in the PRC.

Therefore, given the harsh and difficult circimstances that surround learners of a language in a totally non-native environment of a language of another family, only some scholars will eventually be fluent in the language. The masses, I think, will find it difficult.

[Lu]

Ferno and gato: of course English won't always dominate. The world language changes all the time: it used to be Latin for hundreds of years, then it was French for a while, now it's English, and in the future it might be Swahili, who knows. Right now, English is very important, and therefore it's important for Chinese and other people to learn it. But that doesn't mean it'll be like that forever and ever.