Another blogger setting out to learn Chinese in 3 months

[ilovelamp]

Just read through this whole thread -_-. It's very interesting, but there's a few things I'd like to comment on:
 

After a three-month stay in China, I’m hardly an expert on learning Chinese. However I did go from a minimal amount of prior self-study (105 hours, exactly), to passing the HSK 4 and being able to hold fairly complex conversations in Chinese after my brief stay.

A minimal amount of prior study? It seems like he went to China roughly 1 month after starting the blog (haven't read all that yet so I can't be exact). Which means he studied 3.5 hours per day for a whole month. How is that minimal? IMO that is a lot.. maybe even too much.

 

Also, I got the impression from the beginning that he would be studying at home, using some magic learning technique. Going to another country is a whole other story - you learn way faster, you are forced to study 24/7 whether you like it or not, and you can't help but greatly improve your pronunciation. I speak from personal experience.

 

I don't think this is extraordinary in any way, and could be done by anyone of ordinary intelligence with the right resources and commitment. Cut the time required to reach level of desired competency/fluency in half (or more) if you go to the country.

 

However, great read, and I'm interested in seeing how I compare when I reach 100 days

[Melanie1989]

This might seem slightly random here (i haven't managed to reach the end of the discussion yet), but has anyone ever heard of Tim Doner? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOiXtWcQ8GI

 

I am immediately skeptical of anyone who makes such a claim as Fluent in 3 Months, but this guy makes me wonder..

 

 

Edit: By the way, at the time he made this video, he was 16. Promise yourselves you won't cry

[Bad Cao Cao]

Chinese fluency efficient learning timeline, applies to every serious learner; including Benny Lewis, Scott Young, Tim Doner etc 

 

4-6 months: able to slickly edit youtube videos, meet your learning "goals", sell some e-books. Key steps include: never filming yourself unedited with a native speaker for more than 5 minutes. Your level of Chinese sucks, but don't let that get in the way of a good story.

 

1-2 years: you still suck, but can have basic conversation with waidiren cab drivers. You can get more compliments by uploading even more youtube videos. Easy to fool yourself you are C1+, when you are at a meaningless B1-B2 stage. You may be "fluent" according to your own definition -  but you still suck.  

 

4-6 years: superficially fluent. Everyone thinks you are fluent, but you now know enough Chinese to realise that you do actually suck at the language. 

 

10 year mark: comfortable. You are comfortable in your chosen dialect, but are incapable of having deep conversation with 40+% of Chinese people that don't natively speak the dialect or language you are most comfortable with.

 

15 years+: You don't really care about fluency discussions. You know what you can and can't do. 

[tooironic]

As much as I'm not a fan of cynicism in online posts, I have to admit Bad Cao Cao's analysis is pretty spot on.

[imron]

I have to admit Bad Cao Cao's analysis is pretty spot on.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that.  By the look of it, Scott's Chinese is definitely at the point where he can have basic conversations with waidiren cab drivers.

 

4-6 years is spot on.

 

10 years is also off the mark unless you're going to be specifically travelling to places with little to no exposure to Mandarin, or your main Chinese dialect is not Mandarin.  I've personally had plenty of deep conversations with Chinese people whose native language was not Mandarin

 

15 years is correct.

[tysond]

Fluency.  So many discussions over such a word.

 

If you are getting started it's an impossible dream.

If you are getting better it's a moving goalpost.

If others are better than you it's a carrot to chase after.

If you are better than others it's a great stick to beat them with.  

 

Anyway I think the outcomes of this particular experiment show it's possible to get to HSK4 in about 4 months, and to have functional Chinese spoken ability (yes with tone errors and vocab limitations, and so on...), which is good going for the first 4 months of learning.  Since a lot of people are interested to learn a language to this level, I think it's a useful datapoint.

 

Although I think the finding is more confirming the limits of learning techniques than smashing any fundamental barriers.   So it's a near 4 minute time for this1 mile race, but not necessarily telling anyone how to run a better marathon.  

 

And of course, plenty of others get to this same mark or further in their first year, second year, and then go much further.  

As a taxi driver said to me once "I've had much better laowais than you in my taxi!"

I will never forget being beaten with that stick 

[bluetortilla]

 

 

If you are better than others it's a great stick to beat them with.  

 

I always felt a sense of camaraderie with fellow learners in studying a second language. Getting better at a language, I always felt more than happy to help others struggling to get better as well. No one ever beat me with a stick, and I've made many friends. I would admit to a sense of healthy competition. That helped me get over hurtles.

To tell the truth, I don't think humans are very skillful at all in learning other languages. The chances of learning another language as an adult and becoming so fluent as to pass for a native speaker in a blind test are remote for most people. Not that it matters, but I can't understand why anyone would be boastful about language proficiency. Sports mentality? 

[Lu]

To tell the truth, I don't think humans are very skillful at all in learning other languages. The chances of learning another language as an adult and becoming so fluent as to pass for a native speaker in a blind test are remote for most people.

Humans are great at learning other languages. I think that about 90% of people can learn enough of any language within 6 months to a year to have a simple conversation with a native speaker of that language, as long as the learner has access to enough learning material.

It all depends on your goalposts. Are humans bad at running because only a fraction of the people can manage to run a marathon within 3 hours, or are we great at it because almost everyone with a working pair of legs can learn to run 5 km in only a few months at most?

[renzhe]

I remember hearing the factoid that most people on the planet at at least bilingual.

I don't know if that's true, but if you count most of India, much of China, large parts of Europe and Africa, former USSR states, it might be true.

I agree that people are quite good at learning languages, even as adults. I'm always amazed at how many people manage to learn if circumstances force them -- refugees spring to mind. It's just that most people a) expect it to be easier than it is and don't want to put in the effort, and b) stop as soon as it's "good enough".

To pass the red-herringy travelling-goalpost mother-of-all-undefined-and-made-up "native speaker test", you need to work really hard and actively unlearn things and habits, and this is more trouble than most people are willing to go through.

[laurenth]

I remember hearing the factoid that most people on the planet at at least bilingual.

 

 

Obviously, it's very hard to tell how many people on earth speak more than one language, if only because no one actually knows what "a language" is (in the sense: I speak Wu and Mandarin. Am I bilingual?), and because no one knows what "knowing" a language means (I've learnt Mandarin for 3 months and I'm able to hold some sort of conversation about the weather. I'm fluent. And I will always be even if, having switched to Turkish, and then Swahili, I never utter another word of Mandarin again).

 

That said, most linguists tend to agree that more than half of earthlings speak more than one language.

 

This short article is interesting.

[studychinese]

The issue is that the product being sold (as ilovelamp says) says that you can stay in your own country and be fluent in three months, yet the vendor of the product actually lived in the target country for three months rather than using the method that he will be suggesting that other people use.

 

For the record I also spent three months in China, and spent two hours every weekday with a tutor, with no additional study except for incidental communication with locals. His Chinese level at three months is very similar to mine at the time, really 差不多。In this respect going to the target country, getting a tutor, and being able to speak a little of the language after three months is not rocket science. It isn't fluent either.

[ilovelamp]

Thanks studychinese for putting this back on topic!

 

 

The issue is that the product being sold (as ilovelamp says) says that you can stay in your own country and be fluent in three months, yet the vendor of the product actually lived in the target country for three months rather than using the method that he will be suggesting that other people use.

 

So this guy is using these "experiments" to basically sell his method in the form of e-books? If so, this means anyone could study their a** off for a few months, cram like a boss, and pass HSK level whatever, claim fluency, then sell their method to the public? Sounds like a winning strategy.

 

 

Just to get back off-topic:

The discussion about fluency will be never-ending, and spans a whole range of skills required in language (pronunciation, comprehension, vocabulary). For me personally it would be the point at which you can converse/read/write to a similar degree to your native language, so this would obviously vary from person to person.

 

My ex-girlfriend is German, and I lived with her in Germany in her final year of highschool. From her school study, her half year exchange in NZ, and with my 'tutoring' she achieved a really remarkable level of English (she is also quite talented as far as languages go) - in fact, the only reason you can tell that she is not a native English speaker is because she speaks TOO clearly, and her writing is flawless (never uses gotcha's and gonna's etc). However, in her final exams she only scored a 3 (from 6 - 1) for English. Many other students in her class scored better, simply because of the essay format - this would be comparable to a native English speaker scoring low when writing an essay about Macbeth or something. Her classmates couldn't hold a conversation with me in English, and got lost when I read to them (I helped out in their English class a few times).

 

So, I would be happy if I believe my level of fluency/competency is good, and if others say its good, and won't need to justify my ability by passing a test that may or may not be a good indication of it. If I'm not happy, then I will continue to work until I am.

[Lu]

For me personally it would be the point at which you can converse/read/write to a similar degree to your native language

I find that standard much too high. It's probably possible for some people to achieve that, but by this standard, I'm not even fluent in English, simply because my written Dutch is better and I read Dutch faster than English. Even though I can comfortably talk about anything I want, write about anything I want, interpret Chinese-English without a problem, etc etc.

[OneEye]

To continue the off-topic discussion:

 

I'm always amused to hear people say that their goal in Chinese is (just) to be able to speak/read/write it as well as they do their native language. A friend of mine whose Chinese is very much low-intermediate level told me he'd stick around Taiwan until he reached that level, "maybe another year or so." I know a lot of professional translators, interpreters, sinologists, etc., and I'd say I only know three non-native Chinese speakers who I'd say are near-native level, and they've all been living here working on their Chinese anywhere from 15-30 years. None of them would say their Chinese was close to their native language. Well, one of them would, but his ego is even more vast than his knowledge of Chinese.

 

By any reasonable definition of fluency, I'm fluent in Chinese. I've written research papers and presented them in Chinese, I work as a translator, and I just finished a yearlong class on Chinese-English interpretation where I had to use Chinese to teach English to my Taiwanese partners. I speak reasonably comfortably on things I'm used to talking about in Chinese (albeit with a bit more difficulty than I'd have in English), but those things are much fewer than they are in English. Reading and writing, on the other hand, are still far more difficult no matter the topic, and it's just going to take lots of time and practice to change that.

 

I think people who set such definitions of fluency generally haven't really thought about what all that actually entails. Can you talk about geometry, history (I failed miserably at talking about the Norman conquest recently), biology, anatomy, politics, social issues, geography, computers/technology, movies, sports, food (not just Chinese food!), music, business, physics, art, clothes/fashion, finance, etc. (and it goes on and on) as accurately and with as much facility as you can in your native language? Very, very few people will ever reach that level in any language. Does that mean that very, very few people are fluent in a foreign language?

 

Back on topic:

 

I think the guy did a nice job. It seems that some are disappointed that he didn't achieve an inhumanly high level after 3 months, but he did much better than the vast majority of people do. It's easy to nitpick things like pronunciation and word choice, but I think this shows the level someone with good methods and lots of motivation can achieve in a short amount of time. Not bad. I'll be thrilled if my Japanese is anything like his Chinese after I've been in Tokyo for three months.

[renzhe]

Can you talk about geometry, history (I failed miserably at talking about the Norman conquest recently), biology, anatomy, politics, social issues, geography, computers/technology, movies, sports, food (not just Chinese food!), music, business, physics, art, clothes/fashion, finance, etc. (and it goes on and on) as accurately and with as much facility as you can in your native language?

That is my goal when learning languages, yes. It would feel rather limiting otherwise. Some people underestimate the amount of reading and interaction that is required for this.

At the same time, I agree with you that doing this in Chinese is exceedingly difficult and likely to remain outside of my grasp. At least without a really long immersion period. Just think of all the transliterations of all the people and names involved!

With Indo-European languages, the level you mention is certainly attainable, because of so much shared vocabulary and cultural context.

[studychinese]

Back on topic.

 

There seems to be a proliferation of 'polyglots' these days. All of them sound pretty good speaking the various languages that they speak, except for the languages that I myself know and can speak well, namely Japanese and Korean. The other languages I do not speak and thus have no ability to judge, and I am inclined to think that they speak the other languages equally poorly. That makes me suspect that the language abilities of these recent polyglots are broad but shallow.

 

I am not sure that the regular posters on Chinese forums have anything to learn from these polyglots at all.

[li3wei1]

I am not sure that the regular posters on Chinese forums have anything to learn from these polyglots at all.

 

Well, they seem to be good at marketing themselves and turning a little skill into a reasonable income. That would be a handy thing to learn.

[renzhe]

I'd like to suggest a simple test for polyglots: the hyperactive 10-year-old test. Limited vocabulary, simple sentences, zero holding back, zero tolerance.

If you don't understand that fully, you're not fluent, and you don't speak the language

I tried it today and she totally kicked my ass. My head is still spinning. What an onslaught. :o I'll talk Norman invasion, transsexual rights, organic transistors, anything but the 10-year old.....

[tysond]

I recently (re-)watched a couple of polyglots and X month challenge folks speaking Chinese on their videos.

 

Once I found them quite inspirational.  But now they are very hard to watch.  They have to work *so hard* on speaking, I feel uncomfortable.  Sorry.

Scott was one of the better ones, although I could not finish watching his interviews.  But I do notice that it only works a restricted environment (usually talking to Chinese teachers) on topics which are familiar to them (or worse, just reciting pre-scripted stuff as "polyglot").  Some of the polyglots should not be claiming they speak Chinese at all.

 

I thought Kevin Rudd was pretty good though - an interview on TV with audience questions is an order of magnitude more difficult, and the topics were much more interesting and varied.

Although apparently it's just a matter of time before I will see his mistakes too.  But I wonder if it will become uncomfortable to watch, or there is a certain threshold where it becomes a conversation with mistakes instead of an epic struggle?  

[studychinese]

 

I thought Kevin Rudd was pretty good though - an interview on TV with audience questions is an order of magnitude more difficult, and the topics were much more interesting and varied.

Although apparently it's just a matter of time before I will see his mistakes too.  But I wonder if it will become uncomfortable to watch, or there is a certain threshold where it becomes a conversation with mistakes instead of an epic struggle?  

 

 

I liked the Kevin Rudd interviews too (even though he was a terrible Prime Minister). He is obviously the real deal, not a faker, and willing to take questions in an uncontrolled environment. Compare this with the 'polyglots' that claim they are fluent in so many languages. I am prepared to believe that an English speaker can do it with European languages, especially jumping from say Spanish, to Portuguese, to Italian, but I am unwilling to believe that they are 'fluent' in Chinese, Japanese, or Korean, even providing for the most lax standard of 'fluent', which for me is intermediate level.

 

The funny thing is that I qualify as a polyglot too. My mother tongue is English, and I speak Japanese fluently (advanced, near native), Korean well (upper intermediate, no communication difficulties and never have to resort to English), and probably some form pre-intermediate in Chinese, although I always warn people that I can only speak 'a little' when in truth I can hold quite lengthy conversations (listening is far better than speaking). By the standards of the polyglots we see all over the internet these days I should be selling my 'learning secrets' online to people that think there is any way to learn a language besides hard work.