Another blogger setting out to learn Chinese in 3 months

[imron]

I just want to qualify my statement above about 5 years. I'm not saying you need to learn for 5 years, just that for serious learners long term acquisition is more important than the speed at which you learn.

However you slice it, learning Chinese to the point where you can understand and be understood in the majority of situations you encounter in your daily life is going to be measured in years rather than months. It might be 5, it might be 2 but if getting your Chinese to that level is your goal just realise that it will take time. It's best to acknowledge that up front and pace yourself accordingly to avoid burnout.

There's nothing wrong with doing bouts of intense learning - whether in the beginner intermediate or advanced level. If you follow up intense learning with in country experience all the better.

I don't see much point however in doing 3 months intense language learning if you are then just going to let that skill go to waste through lack of use.

When I said 5 years, I meant that I sincerely hope he sticks with the language for longer than just the 3 months intense studying he's going to put himself through.

[bluetortilla]

I read it. Scott just recently graduated from high school by the way. It's not about speed learning or language learning at all, but rather an argument against rote memorization in favor of 'holistic' approaches. I'm all in favor of his approaches, but his 横幅标语 is a bit suspicious. ha ha just kidding Scott. You started a lively thread here!

[Elizabeth_rb]

I agree with imron in the main.

 

Many of these people are just language collectors who learn for a while, then move on to the next one.  Part of me understands this as I'd love to learn loads of languages and would like to devote 6 months at a time to certain ones, probably coming back to them for another 6 months within a couple of years or as need emerged.  Health issues prevent, but the desire is there.

 

However, having said that, I think if you're serious about a decent level of competence in any language, you are talking a long-term project.  I'm coming to the end of the 19th year of my engagement with Chinese, of which 5 or 6 have been intensive study years at uni and/or in Taiwan.

 

I've just had a browse through Scott's book and it seems worth reading to me and to have quite a bit in common with Tony Buzan's work.  As Scott says, he's not producing anything new.  Good for him, I say!  Wish I was only 18/9 and had accomplished so much!

[imron]

I used to be against rote memorisation, and saw it as 'dumb' learning and then after a few years I tried it and found it to be really useful, especially for breaking through language plateaus. So I think it still has a very useful place in language learning.

[bluetortilla]

 

I used to be against rote memorisation, and saw it as 'dumb' learning and then after a few years I tried it and found it to be really useful, especially for breaking through language plateaus. So I think it still has a very useful place in language learning. 

 

 

Memorization and drills are without a doubt the vice grips of a learning toolkit. While learning only through memorization would be 'dumb' of course (cram school style) it is impossible to learn vocabulary, 汉字, and basic grammatical principles without it. There's no way around it. But it doesn't have to be boring either as long as its balanced with other activities. Memorizing can be a lot like games. 

 

This can also apply even to true bilinguals- people who grew up speaking two languages, though they never had to formally study either language. Typically, my daughter is a 17 year-old true bilingual (Japanese/English) but her English vocabulary is still at a low junior high school level despite being a high school senior (her Japanese is not the greatest either- though she's bright, bilingualism apparently has a cost). TOEIC is a pretty big challenge for her, just as the vocabulary on the GRE was for me even as a native speaker. So that aspect is relative- my daughter is spot on native with idiomatic language in both languages though.

[ScottHYoung]

There's always an eerie feeling of joining an internet conversation that's about you, kind of like you're intruding on a private conversation. But hopefully I can respond to some of the points various commenters brought up.

 

First, as to my goals and aspirations. My main goal, is to get to a point where I can hold a one-on-one conversation without too much strain. That doesn't mean being perfectly fluent, as I may need to probe around to get at vocabulary I don't have, but it should mean sitting down for coffee with someone and speaking Mandarin for an hour shouldn't be uncomfortable for either of us. I haven't done any CERF exams, but I believe that's probably a B1 level for spoken communication.

 

I am very interested in learning the characters, but I hesitated to state that forcefully on my blog for two reasons. First, my main goal is conversational mandarin. If learning characters are becoming a distraction from actually speaking and interacting with people, I'll have to reduce my time with them during this three month period. Second, I don't believe that my side-goal of learning characters will be sufficient for most basic literacy tasks. My understanding is that somewhere around 2000-4000 characters is necessary for reading things like newspapers or books. My hope would be more on the range of 500-1500, building on the 300 or so I've already learning in my prior 105 hours of study.

 

I definitely won't be fluent by most reasonable definitions. But I'd like to be at the point where travelling and making friends in Chinese is possible.

 

---

 

Now, as to *why* I'm pursuing this goal. Many readers correctly point out that I'm a blogger with a financial incentive to do well and to document learning quickly. That's completely true--I have personal reasons for wanting to learn Mandarin, but I won't pretend that learning well wouldn't be nice for my blog too.

 

My personal reasons for learning Mandarin are the same as learning the other languages as part of my trip: (1) I wanted to build a connection to the cultures I'm travelling to and I believe language learning is an excellent access point for this. (2) I wanted to have the ability to make shorter trips to China and the other countries of languages I speak where I could operate within that language without significant strain. (3) I want to maintain and create friendships within the language while I live in Canada. All of these conditions are, to me, the prerequisites for enjoying participation in the language to a point where ongoing learning is rewarding, rather than a chore.

 

As I finished the similar projects I had with Spain (Spanish) and Brazil (Portuguese) I felt I achieved my personal goals with both of those languages, particularly Spanish. The question on my mind is to what extent I will be able to achieve those goals in Chinese, given its notorious difficulty.

 

Why am I doing the project in three months? Simply because that's the time I had to travel in China. I had already studied 105 hours prior and I plan to devote time to growing my Mandarin over years (although I won't be focusing on it full-time as I am now). My hope is that I can reach a beachhead with the langauge where making friends with Vancouver's Mandarin-speaking community allow me to continue more gradual progress.

 

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Why should you listen to me/follow my progress? Honestly, if you're an advanced Chinese learner, I'm probably not going to offer much in the way of tips on the meta-learning for Chinese. I've been following blogs like Olle Linge's Hacking Chinese for over a year now, and there's no way I can offer detailed tips, even if I'm successful and reach an intermediate level in a few months.

 

That being said, my goal is to document my learning effort as thoroughly as possible. My friend and I plan on doing daily conversation recordings so you can see our progress, a final conversational interview with an advanced/native speaker as well as a final edited video merging the language learning with the cultural experience. My hopes is that someone could see my project and how I approached it, and use that to draw their own motivation to pursue a language related goal.

 

As I did with the MIT Challenge (which, to contradict a previous comment wasn't to get an MIT degree, but to pass their final exams and do their programming projects--an important distinction) my goal is to encourage people to pursue their own self-education goals, even if they don't approach it with the intensity that I attempt.

 

----

 

To summarize my philosophy, for every one learner who is overeager and believes they can "learn" Mandarin in a couple weeks of hard study (perhaps provoked by Benny or my recent challenges) I believe there are 50 who will never attempt Mandarin because it's too hard, too foreign or too strange. I've met Europeans that speak six languages but balked at the idea of learning Chinese, which to me is a huge loss, cutting them off from a huge richness of culture and ideas.

 

I can't say how difficult Chinese will be, or how much more difficulty it is than Spanish, Portuguese or French, but I hope that by documenting both my effort and results (in the form of regular audio recordings), whatever additional difficulty Mandarin holds, it can be put into a real context.

[querido]

Your plan to document and record as you go sounds very interesting.

 

I, for one, hope you give everything to your project and don't feel a need to answer too many critics. I hope your results speak for themselves. :-) Good luck. :-)

[戴 睿]

 

 

My main goal, is to get to a point where I can hold a one-on-one conversation without too much strain. My main goal, is to get to a point where I can hold a one-on-one conversation without too much strain. 

 

I can offer you a bit of insight with this.

 

I come from a background where I achieved this exact goal - speaking at an intermediate level after about 3 months. I did so within a very controlled environment, and with the daily tutelage of advanced speakers for the first two months, and native speakers for the third month (I lived with the native speaker during that time, and worked with him as missionaries for our religion, which meant we were together 24/7).

 

I feel that it's an achievable goal, even without the environment that I had. But a few things to think about:

 

• First, I exposed myself to no more than about 300 characters during those first three months. It was a distraction that simply interfered with my ability to improve fluency, and every passing second was far more valuable trying to converse in the language than quietly learning characters at a desk. I personally feel that if you truly want to reach that level speaking, you'll have to sacrifice characters in the beginning (I later went back and picked them up, and while it took a bit of maintenance, it was not as bad as I would have thought).
• Second, intermediate level speaking meant for me that: My vocabulary was limited, but my listening/pronunciation/ and speaking flow were surprisingly on point. I reduced Chinese grammar into about 80 structures that I felt were absolutely necessary for comfortable communication. I then targeted focused vocabulary topics for memorization, and worked relentlessly and learning them in a holistic way, guided constantly by an advanced/native speaker.
• We had a rule called "SYL." Speak Your Language. It means no english (you already seem to be applying this rule). I had a dictionary that I carried around with me constantly, and a small red moleskin notebook that I recorded every word I didn't know but wanted to use in. Each day I reviewed the notebook with the help of an advanced speaker, and implemented the new bits of knowledge during the next days study.
• Socialization is key. One thing about your strategy that I think will pay massive dividends is the commitment to making friends. I socialized in mandarin from the second I could form one coherent sentence. It seems like you already understand the benefits and importance inherent within this.

 

To be honest, the whole experience really just flew by. I took really detailed notes, which I didn't take the time to review before posting this (otherwise I'd have more insights for you), but in general it sounds like your approach will reward you with the results you're looking for. I think that it can't be stressed enough that during the three months I first spent learning mandarin, I was never alone. Literally. I was always surrounded by another speaker. I also was completely shut off to all forms of English media. No internet/T.V./Movies/books/news/anything. Every piece of language I was exposed to was mandarin, and the motivation to get with the program and learn was massive. It was an intense experience, but it had the desired effect.

 

If you have any specific questions feel free to message me.

[bluetortilla]

It does sound like great documentation of acquisition in progress. It was nice to read your clarifying and eloquent post, as you dispel a lot of the nonsense that at least I for one was on about. Best of luck in your adventure. I don't doubt you'll be successful.

 

I only wish I could go through the draconian regimen that 戴睿 went through! I'd either come out insane or speaking like a native. 

 

 

[roddy]

If you have any specific questions feel free to message me

Please don't do this - if you take discussions out of sight, one person benefits. Have them in public and any number benefit, not to mention doing the community as a whole good.

[Elizabeth_rb]

I wish you all the very best, Scott!

 

I don't pretend that I won't be a tad peeved and envious if you manage to get to that level in such a short time when it took me a couple of years, but then, as you said you'd had a fair amount of time on Chinese before, it's not so bad.  Actually, on mature reflection, I reckon I could have done it too.

 

Anyway, you go, man!  Have a great time and good hunting!

[戴 睿]

Please don't do this - if you take discussions out of sight, one person benefits. Have them in public and any number benefit, not to mention doing the community as a whole good.

嗯嗯，对不起。你说对了。Right, point taken.

I only wish I could go through the draconian regimen that 戴睿 went through! I'd either come out insane or speaking like a native.

I can assure you, it was quite the experience haha. Still, I don't regret it. I felt that in my situation, with the sort of learning structure I was placed under, I had to choose either to obsessively love or utterly hate Chinese. Fortunately I chose to love it!

[roddy]

Average posts per day before Scott actually turned up: 20+

Average posts per day after Scott actually turned up: 3

 

It's almost as if people prefer to talk about him, rather than to him...

[querido]

I hope he becomes someone we would emulate; it is not only we who haven't posted since his #46. (I thought to myself that whether or not he did might be a revealing indicator, compared to that other guy we talked about at length who kept coming back here to pump up the conversation.) I also think it's very self-assured of him to resist this opportunity to promote himself here - not due to some distaste for marketing, but hopefully because he is fully immersed right now!

It's a leadership quality; maybe some of the more negative posters are themselves now hard at work!

Edit: I do hope he read #48.

[bluetortilla]

Well, we all found out what was really going on, exchanged some interesting experiences on learning, and that's that I guess. Everyone was pretty endeared to Scott.

 

I still have some comments and a question to Scott though:

You call your piece a 'book' but it is far too cursory to ever be considered a book. It is more like an introduction to a book. It doesn't even have enough data to be a hypothesis.

I'm not criticizing just for the sake of debate. Seriously, you're not planning on try to sell this essay as an ebook, are you? I'd be pretty upset if I paid money for this. So, as far as I know, you're using your 'Learn Chinese in Three Months' gambit as a way to earn money off of your blog, right? Pardon me, I'm not sure how that works. I never got paid money for learning something. 

But the 'book' just floats around, right?

 

Maybe that'll 'add oil' to the discussion. : D

[Elizabeth_rb]

you're using your 'Learn Chinese in Three Months' gambit as a way to earn money off of your blog, right?

 

I got the impression from his comments that the earning money bit came as sideline and that he was doing the language learning bit purely 'cos he wanted to.

 

maybe some of the more negative posters are themselves now hard at work!

 

That would be the ideal, wouldn't it?  I wasn't at all negative towards him, and even I've been getting through my 'mental' texts very well, which, considering I'm ill at the mo, (thus being able to post so much!!), isn't half bad.

 

BTW What I mean by 'mental' texts is that I often work through lower level stuff as a re-cap and bad-habit prevention scheme as well as with a view to helping lower level learners and I just work with the book and, apart from making note of some new words etc here and there, I just do all the drills and exercises in my head.  The 'Schaum Grammar' I write down all the Chinese stuff - trying to alternate between simplified and traditional with each sentence.  The translate to English stuff I just do in my head.

 

Add oil, everyone!

[Shelley]

Not sure if it is because we would rather talk about him than to him, maybe more like now he has clearly and reasonably stated what he plans to do, there is not much left to talk about.

 

i get the feeling people are waiting to find out how he does, as he is going to record and document it all, we will be able to see his progress in the next 3 months.

 

If in 3 months the results are not up to his expectations this topic may become a hot tamale again.

 

If he succeeds I suspect there won't be much comment which is a shame and shows peoples nature.

 

I for one wish him success but have my doubts he will achieve what he hopes, but as Elizabeth_rb says "I don't pretend that I won't be a tad peeved and envious if you manage to get to that level in such a short time when it took me a couple of years"

 

This may be the crux of the matter, hardworking long term learners feeling a bit green around the gills at what can be achieved in a short space of time.

 

I am also not sure it is entirely fair to say he will do in 3 months as he freely admits he has had some time (105 hours ) i think. Not a huge amount but still not coming in to it cold.

 

So now it is a waiting game............we shall see what happens

[Elizabeth_rb]

I think, given his circumstances etc, I could have done what he's setting out to do.  I guess I'm mostly peeved that I don't have much chance to prove it myself anymore...

 

I would like to give those Hugo 'in three months' books a serious trial one day with a relatively new language (something like Norwegian) and see how much I could really accomplish.  I'd never be a high-profile blog figure though, so you'd probably never hear.

 

In the meantime, I'm seeing how much Chinese I can learn, brush up and move forward over the next few years.

[bluetortilla]

 

 

It's a leadership quality; maybe some of the more negative posters are themselves now hard at work!

 

Point well taken. I thought I'd study like a maniac over vacation, but I've been preoccupied with oversleeping instead. Ah well, I'll try harder tomorrow! Seriously. I will. We all need those reminders.

 

About negative posters- I'm sure I'm one (probably the worst!). And I really don't consider myself a pessimist or anything. I'm certainly not an angry type. But there is a need for the skeptic- that's just good science. And I realize that how 'fast' and 'well' one learns a language like Mandarin depends on a lot of things. But for most of us, it definitely requires heaps of effort sustained for the long haul. That's the empirical data I get anyway. But while I find #46 inspiring as well, it's worth looking at 戴睿's response in #52.

[bluetortilla]

 

 

I got the impression from his comments that the earning money bit came as sideline and that he was doing the language learning bit purely 'cos he wanted to.

 

OK, but not sure what you mean by sideline. Are there other ways to make money off a blog other than advertising or selling something? Sorry- I'm not sure what Scott's blog is all about anyway. Or really what a blog (web log) is either, except that it seems to be a series of articles or editorials related to a topic. I just get that sort of 'wince' feeling when somebody is trying to get to buy something. 

 

Are there any good blogs on learning Chinese, by the way? I love forums. Forums are a direct outgrowth of the Newsgroups days (you're probably too young for those). They were just plaintext posts related to headings like Consciousness and Philosophy. It seems that in this forum we all have a chance to share how we study and what resources we like and can respond directly to each other. Do others here find any blogs helpful in their study of Chinese?